been reading a lot about this. seems more hype than real science… was wondering if anyone here uses them? what results have you gotten and what brand your using? i understand with legumes and other N fixing plants that it benefits them, but what about other plants/ trees? is it really worth it to use this on roots of all plants?
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You’re correct there’s a lot of hype on the topic and possibly more to come in this thread.
Some plants have no relationship with mycorrhiza, while others famously do, and others (e.g. blueberries) who require a special species typically not found in stores or online.
As for common mycorrhiza there’s probably already some in your soil. When using a commercial product be aware that it must come in contact with active roots within 24 hours (12 is better) or it is dead – whether the label says so or not. The powdered products have a long shelf life until the content gets wet. The liquid products have a very short shelf life and the entire contents will die within hours of opening the bottle.
Finally, keep in mind that word “inoculant”. They only need to be applied once. This fact should cause laughter when seeing a fertilizer made for repeated application that advertises “contains mycorrhiza!”
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I bought a bag of mixed mycorrhiza and sprinkled a bit (Tbsp, powdered) on the wet roots of every tree, bush, vine, etc., I planted when I planted it. The soil here is so-so, not much organic material. My technique addressed many of the issues brought up by Richard. I have no control group so I can’t say what, if any, effect was produced. I’m just writing this because one sack went a long way, I don’t know if my soil has all the good things the plants want, and I figured, why not.
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I used some sort of Myco product when I planted my first fruit trees and blueberry bushes several years ago. Then I decided it probably wasn’t worth the expense and haven’t used it since. I can’t say that I have noticed any difference either way.
Always.
I use it in pots while the plants are getting big enough to be planted as well.
I use the tabs Fungi Perfecti sells along with a little soil taken from same/similar plants root zones.
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i have added some to the N fixing plants plants like seaberry/ goumi ,when i initially planted them. wether the right species or not, i don’t know. seems to me some good compost put in the hole at time of planting or some worm castings would contain all that good bacteria and fungi plants would need without a addition of store bought products. a lot of the hype out there comes from the cannabis growing industry , which is wraught with misinformation.
Michael Phillips is a big propopent of beneficial bacteria and mycorrhizae fungi. I’m not sure what studies he is pulling from, but his explanations at least sound very logical.
Is it hype because there aren’t enough studies to back it up,’or because for the average gardener, it won’t much a huge difference? Just looking for clarification here, not arguing.
I’ve only used the mycorrhizae one year, and I’m set to start using the effective Microorganisms too this year. So I’m genuinely curious how these have worked out for others, especially anyone trying to grow organic.
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I’m doing some beds with pro mix plus instead of just peat this spring. it has the bacteria and fungi added to it already. don’t know if it will help but it can’t hurt.
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My soil did not have the fungi but visibly does now after adding the innoculant during planting. My soil was worn out old farm ground used to grow gmo’s. @Richard is right about everything said and i will add one more thing which is how do you ever know the contents of your jar of innoculant?
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I would have to see what Michael P. has to say specifically to make a judgement, but the man, in my opinion, blends science with philosophy to create a kind of religion about growing fruit.
Religions can be useful providers of guidance, but in horticulture, I’d rather create my own and interpret the science myself.
Mychorizal relationships have been studied for decades now, and most plants have them, but in most cases the soil already contains the beneficial fungus plants need. The fungus are generally not very specific.
Plants grown in pots can benefit from inoculation and that is probably why high quality potting soils now often contain inoculant. Land that has been stripped of top soil or that has been hit by fire can also benefit.
The best way to know in your area if there is any point is to find out what commercial growers are doing. Like I said, the knowledge has been around for a while and if such a cheap means actually increases productivity you cooperative extension should have the information.
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I put it in the category of snake oil. For one thing, how would you know the little bag of whatever is viable? Or even that it was ever what it said it was?
Best case scenario, what makes you think that a strain adapted to, say, pecan trees, would have any beneficial effect on your new planting of say, raspberries?
I heard a story that traditional Italian orchardists put a handful of soil from a neighborhood tree of the same type that is doing well, in the hole. Now that makes a lot of sense. Not the commercial sale of this stuff.
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This is a link showing what i did specifically in 2015 Soil Secrets. Now before anyone assumes im doing everything wrong look at my results with my regard on the subject of the importance of soil
Carmine Jewell Cherry Yields increasing with age
Here comes the 2016 apple and Pear harvest!
2017 Carmine Jewell Cherries! Wow almost ripe!
Here comes the 2018 apple & pear harvest!
There is a tipping point with soil ive seen where it goes from working for us to worn out or the opposite which many people bring up where the soil is good enough for fruit growing and we cant improve it further. Let me be specific in my case i found a little magnesium, cow manure , and wood chips works great for me most of the time now so long term extra was not needed. Initially i needed extra because remember my soil was dirt which was warn out with the consistency of talcon powder. We see many people post who are not using clay soil / thin loam like we are and definately most of the time they just need wood chips around the tree to.preserve moisture. @alan has brought up a valid point multiple times that is learned the hard way about soil. To many applications of wood chips build up over time making the soil to rich in nutrients to grow fruit trees. Many people hit their young trees with heavy nutrients to get them big fast which either works or the tree is destroyed by disease. The other point is carmine jewells are heavy feeders and not every tree or bush is so one size does not fit all. Pears dont like strong chemical fertilizer they respond with growth which causes fireblight.
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My understanding is that a healthy soil is already teaming with the microbiology that people are attempting to add, and an unhealthy soil won’t support the mycorrhizae they attempt to inoculate. I read Michael Phillips The Apple Grower and I don’t recall him pushing inoculates, but rather building healthy soil and plant diversity which in turn supports natural development of healthy and extensive mycorrhizae (build it and they will come). Here’s a paper by Dr. Linda Chalker-Scott relating to the subject for 'home gardeners": A Gardener’s Primer to Mycorrhizae: Understanding How They Work and Learning How to Protect Them | WSU Extension | Washington State University
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That’s a helpful article. When I said Michael Phillips is a proponent of it, I didnt mean that he recommends buying tons of innoculents. Indeed, it is all about building a healthy soil. However, he does recommend a mycorrhizae root dip when planting bare root trees and using effective Microorganisms in his holistic orchard spray (foliar spray that includes Neem oil, em, seaweed extract, fish or coconut extract, and soap). He does also admit that you could replace the effective Microorganisms with a good homemade compost tea.
Being a successful garden writer has more to do with being a good writer than a “good” gardener. Phillips didn’t win his reputation by having one of the most productive apple orchards in his area, it was by writing very well and transferring info in an understandable way. Under these standards, he’s one of the best garden writers we have, IMO.
His first book didn’t include claims not supported by science, but I believe that he’s continuing his writing career by going in a bit of a different direction. In my opinion, a mychorrizae root dip would only be worth the effort if you were planting in soil deficient of necessary fungus and your dip was a nice match for the species.
The second link I provided is a guide to commercial nursery growers for using these amendments- commercial nurseries often use pesticides that can kill the life of the soil, including fumigants- they also often employ “artificial” soils for pot culture. It makes it clear that even active cultures can do more harm than good and species specific mixtures are now considered essential, which was a surprise to me.
For my money, using a shovel full of soil from the base of an established, healthy tree of the same species would be the most efficient way of colonizing the soil with a useful population, but it still wouldn’t make a difference in most soils. Fungus get around and find food sources when they become available.
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i agree. If i introduce a banana clone propagated from aseptic tissue culture, planting it directly on las vegas’ dirt, that clone may not grow to be as healthy as the same species obtained as a pup from asia(with stowaway dirt and microbiota around its roots) and also planted in vegas’ soil, say, a mile away from each other. That will hold true if bananas are dependent on myco’s.
just as tropical regions don’t have the same species of fruit trees as temperate regions, tropical soils won’t have identical species of microbiota as temperate soils.
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I’m going to try out T22 this year on fig cuttings, they are in a sterile mix that is mostly biochar. Will probably compare to compost tea.
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I used a myco root dip for several years, then I stopped using it. I didn’t notice any difference. My impression from past readings I did on this is there are some cases where it helps but in most cases it won’t.
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I think the inoculant is not so much the issue as whether the inoculant’s food is in the media to which it is being introduced. If its food is there, likely it is too and in this case you can speed things up. In other words, if their food is present, the inoculation will take, if not, it is like herding cows into a football stadium with AstroTurf. (The cows will survive longer than the fungi though.)
Most microbials are in the ‘breaking down’ and/or recycling business, reducing dead/dying plant/animal products into usable nutes again.
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Which is a good argument against bothering with inoculants- if the medium isn’t sterile the mychorizal fungi are already there.
I prepare my tree potting soil with a third compost that sits under forest trees whose roots quickly inhabit my piles of compost. It is the product of grass clippings, leaves and woodchips collected by a local yard that sells landscape and masonry supplies wholesale. They also make their own “topsoil” out of sand and their own compost as well as the compost alone. At $22 a yard the compost is a true bargain and probably a great habitat for mychorizal fungi. Both my forest trees and fruit trees root in it like crazy.
If I didn’t have a nursery, I could make enough of it for my own purposes out of leaves that fall on my property.
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