If you have the room for a Eplum I would try it. They bloom much later than Jplums and are great for drying. You will have to use a fungicide around ripening time or brown rot can be a problem. The one I bought from a nursery was very slow to bare, +7 years. I have grafted some on a red plum rootstock and they bared in a year or two. I don’t know the name of the rootstock.
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Twice in the early 1990’s I picked a mess of blue plums, different years, different trees. Both were rather small trees and heavily loaded. We were living in Cookeville TN and I did a lot of fruit exploring by bike in the older neighborhoods. A lot of older houses with fruit trees were rentals by that time, rented to college kids and empty in the summers. I remember at one of them I noticed the plum tree when I picked green Jume apples, probably Yellow Transparent. It was August when I went back to check the plum tree beside it, and though there were Japanese beetles eating the fruit, there was very little brown rot. The other house was more in town, was standing empty in an area recently zoned commercial. No one was caring for either tree. I doubt they were anything fancier than Stanley or Damascas. In fact, Damascas is P. insititia, tetraploid instead of hexaploid, and just a few steps away from the wild sloes in .the hedgerows in England. I made the most wonderful jam with them. I wouldn’t mind having such trees if I only got crops in dry years, but if the trees die from BK, I might be lucky to get one crop in a tree’s short lifetime. That’s why I was looking at Bluebyrd and that NY9 whatever.
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I also picked yellow Euro plums in east Tenn in the drought in the 1980’s, which were probably from rootstocks or seedlings of previous yellow plums. They were probably also P. institia. Crockett Kinser, UT’s corn breeder back in the 1980’s, gave me a yellow plum he had collected in the old Black part of Knoxville that he said would never get Black Knot. My tree died, not of BK, but a scion I sent to another Nafexer DID get BK. So I wonder if there are different strains of BK in different areas.
I thought the information I found back before the internet would be easy to find ON the internet, but not so… Here’s a little peice:
Genetic characterization of worldwide Prunus domestica (plum) germplasm using sequence-based genotyping
Abstract
Prunus domestica commonly known as European plum is a hexaploid fruit tree species cultivated around the world.
Locally it is used for fresh consumption, in jams or jellies, and the production of spirits while commercially the fruit is primarily sold dried (prunes). Despite its agricultural importance and long history of cultivation, many questions remain about the origin of this species, the relationships among its many pomological types, and its underlying genetics.
Here, we used a sequence-based genotyping approach to characterize worldwide plum germplasm including the potential progenitor Eurasian plum species. Analysis of 405 DNA samples established a set of four clades consistent with the pomological groups Greengages, Mirabelles, European plums, and d’Agen (French) prune plums. A number of cultivars from each clade were identified as likely clonal selections, particularly among the “French” type prune germplasm that is widely cultivated today. Overall, there was relatively low genetic diversity across all cultivated plums
suggesting they have been largely inbred and/or derived from a limited number of founders. The results agree with P. domestica having originated as an interspecific hybrid of a diploid P. cerasifera and a tetraploid P. spinosa that itself may have been an interspecific hybrid of P. cerasifera and an unknown Eurasian plum species. The low genetic diversity and lack of true wild-types coupled with the known cultivation history of Eurasian plums imply that
P. domestica may have been a product of inter-specific cross breeding and artificial selection by early agrarian Eurasian societies.
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What varieties of E plums do you grow?
I don’t actually have any Euro plums myself, but was wanting to get 1 or 2 since I’ll have another place with better soil to plant in. I knew Bluebyrd was BK resistant, then saw it needed a pollinator… then looked what people had to say about it here. Only then did I start thinking about the plums I had actually harvest in the 4 decades I’ve been in Tennessee. They were all either Damsons or like I say, something like yellow Damsons. Nothing fancy. And then I found more info to back me up on what types of plums would do well for me…
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I’ve chopped out a lot, and put the most pertinent parts in bold print. So who still sells Damson plums? Oh, and plum wine is my favorite homemade wine.
From Damson - Wikipedia
Excerpts:
/Robert_Hogg_(biologist)) commented that “the Damson seems to be a fruit peculiar to England. We do not meet with it abroad, nor is any mention of it made in any of the pomological works or nurseryman’s catalogues on the Continent”.[[11]] As time progressed, a distinction developed between the varieties known as “damascenes” and the (usually smaller) types called “damsons”, to the degree that by 1891 they were the subject of a lawsuit when a [Nottinghamshire] grocer complained about being supplied one when he had ordered the other.[[12]]
The damson … was regarded as thriving better in the continental [United States] than other European plum varieties; many of the earliest references to European plums in American gardens concern the damson. A favourite of early colonists, the tree has escaped from gardens and can be found growing wild in states such as [Idaho]
The main characteristic of the damson is its distinctive rich flavour; unlike other plums it is both high in sugars and highly astringent The fruit of the damson can also be identified by its shape, which is usually ovoid and slightly pointed at one end, or pyriform; its smooth-textured [yellow] flesh; and its skin, which ranges from dark [blue] to near-black depending on the variety Most damsons are of the “clingstone” type, where the flesh adheres to the stone. The damson is broadly similar to the semi-wild bullace, also classified as ssp. insititia, which is a smaller but invariably round plum with purple or yellowish-green skin. Damsons generally have a deeply furrowed stone, unlike bullaces, and unlike prunes cannot be successfully dried Most individual damson varieties can be conclusively identified by examining the fruit’s stone, which varies in shape, size and texture.
Damsons do take a long time to bear fruit, as the ancient rhyme has it:-
"He who plants plums
Plants for his sons.
He who plants damsons
Plants for his grandsons."
Although the majority of damson varieties are blue-black or purple in colour, there are at least two now-rare forms of “white damson”, both having green or yellow-green skin. The National Fruit Collection has accessions of the “White Damson (Sergeant)”[47] and the larger “White Damson (Taylor)”, both of which may first have been mentioned in the 1620s.
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If all you’ve harvested is Damsons you’ve not really experienced the pleasure of wonderfully sweet E. plums. When dead ripe, Damsons are OK for fresh eating but most people won’t rate them in the WOW! category.
Scientists that speculate based on logic are no more accurate than any hobbyist with sound deductive reasoning and internet access. I believe Hogg is mistaken to say Damsons are only appreciated in England and I’m guessing he didn’t socialize with many French chefs. They aren’t a top plum in France but are recognized for their culinary attributes based on my reading.
The reason Damsons are useful is primarily because the astringency is subdued by cooking and adding sugar, but you will need more sugar than if you are cooking with less astringent plums. Damson’s small size also means they are more work to prepare for culinary purposes than other, larger plums- it takes just as much time to remove a seed from a small fruit as a large one.
That said, it is a very reliable cropper for me and less prone to brown rot than other E. plums I grow. However, I usually don’t even bother to harvest the large grafted branch I have and leave it for the birds. I just don’t have time to process it when I have bushels of Valor and Empress plums to use instead. It was similarly unpopular on the one orchard I used to manage that had two vigorous Damson plum trees in the mix, except with a couple women who had opened a distillery and used them in some kind of ancient liquor recipe.
However, if it was the only E. plum I could grow I’d have two trees of it in my orchard.
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Alan, thank you for the encouragement. You aren’t in Tennessee, so nice Euro plums are more likely to survive for you. My journey thru memory lane suggests that I should get a couple damsons, and see if I can get hold of something like those nice little yellow plums I picked in East Tenn. Since Crockett Kincer and I found yellow Euro plums about 40 miles apart in the Tennessee Valley, there ought to be more there. Hmmm… or maybe in a germplasm repository?
Yeah, I assume if folks aren’t growing them there they must be extremely difficult to crop there. They bloom later than J’s so otherwise that’s probably what you’d mostly grow. They tend to be somewhat more reliable here than most J’s but the J’s are wonderfully vigorous and precocious- most of them, anyway.
I wonder if brown rot and black knot scared most folks away. Hoping that modern varieties, fungicides, and rootstocks can shift the paradigm.
So I’m in south Louisiana, Zone 9a.
A year ago spring I planted Parfume de Septembre, Purple Gage, and Geneva Mirabelle.
They haven’t flowered much less fruited yet, so I’m thinking my problems trying to grow them here are still ahead of me.
At least they haven’t died or shown any particular issue yet.
If they go belly up, at least I have a few more spots for other trees.
Mid-Missouri zone 6b. We had a Damson plum tree in the back yard as I was growing up; probably planted by my parents about the time I was born (1943). We ate and made jam from the plums most years.
I now live 20 miles West of that home-place, and planted another Damson tree from Stark’s Nursery in 2017. It produced plums in 2023 but not 2024 because of the late frost/freeze in April. I’m looking forward to plums this next season.
I also have Stanley Prune plum, Mt. Royal plum, Santa Rosa plum, Methley plum and a couple of Prairie Red plums.
While growing up, our best producing plums were 10+ "un-named’ redish, probably native plum trees that shot up many sprouts. Very good eating.
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I love hearing about the native plum trees, Chickasaw or otherwise, like all of those that @coolmantoole has shared about so much!
Alan, im not sure you directed the question to me, but assuming you did:
I planted a Burgess sourced Stanley. It took a long time to bear fruit, at least 7 years. I have since grafted Rein Claud Bavey and Emperial Epinuse. They are far Superior to Stanley. In fairness to Stanley it can grow in colder regions. I have grafted Vision, Valor, Middleburg, and Ersinger on what i believe to be a J.plum rootstock. These haven’t fruited hong enough to give a fair evaluation.
I know E.plums are noted for black knot issues but i find my J.plums have bigger issues with the knot. This may change as the fungus adapts to the E.pums. i can’t state it as fact but just as there are many varieties of dogs they have different characteristics. I feel the same goes for black knot. The variety i have in my orchard is optimized for J.plums.
The black knot fungus here goes after almost all E. plums with the same enthusiasm as J. plums. On the E side Bluebyrd seems nearly or completely immune. Cummins once sold me a few J. plums (interspecific hybrids, I presume) that were being tested in a breeding program Cornell had running at the time, but the variety he sent me makes bland but big plums. It never gets black knot, which Cummins may have been unaware of because he never mentioned that. I still manage 2 of the trees he sold me- if I was more ambitious I would plant some of their seeds. Cornell has shut down its stonefruit breeding program but they may have been close to something very important.
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Planting out those seeds would be interesting. It would take time and patience but if you could cross with something with flavor and keep immunity you would really have something. I also have an acreage in MN zone 3b/4a. There I have the to space to try something like that but chances are its too cold there. I currently don’t have any plums growing there so i dont know if BK will be an issue there. That brings up another issue; how easy is it to transport BK spores? In my nursery beds in TN I have some plums I plan to bring to MN. I guess i should sanitize them. Any ideas? Fungicide or chlorine?
Once i get my MN orchard running I may want to purcgase some seeds from you.
BK is endemic in all wild cherries (including chokecherries), and should be naturally occurring throughout MN. Keeping those wild cherries away from BK resistant varieties is probably your best bet.
I tried growing European plums here in SE Georgia before I knew better. It’s a waste of effort. Yes, they got a little black know, but that’s the least of my worries here. First, they never thrived at all because the bacterial leaf scald and shot hole hit them hard almost immediately, and then bacterial canker took them all out the first season. I had something mislabelled “Green Gage” which lasted four years and even tried to bear fruit a couple of times. However, it was actually an Asian type-plum. It got hit with some mystery disease which caused the limbs the swell up. It may have turned into black knot. Wince it hit most of the limbs all at once, I figured that whatever it was would end up killing the tree, so I ripped it out before it could spread to the other trees. I for one would not recommend trying to grow European plums in Georgia unless you are up in the North Georgia mountains. But to be honest, I’m on lots of plum forums, and I haven’t heard any reports of anyone having success with them there either.
As for BK being carried by cherries, the only time I ever see it around here it is either in black cherry P. serotina or flatwoods plum, P. umbellatta. I have removed every black cherry I can find anywhere close to my orchard. I do sometimes bring branches of P. umbellatta flowers into the yard. But I’m careful to only collect it from trees where I see zero black knot. So far, knock on wood, I have never had much problems with black knot, but I’m just now beginning to branch out into trying some of the none-hybrid Asian type plums from the USDA breeding program in Byron Georgia. So stay tooned. I should be able to share some thoughts about how those do here in a few years.
For a few years Adam’s County Nursery sold a fake Green Gage, apparently intentionally, that was an Asian plum whose fruit looked surprisingly similar to Green Gage while tasting more like Shiro and not at all like any kind of Gage. It isn’t the only time I have brought misnomers to their attention. They are or used to be careless with varieties they don’t sell much to commercial growers.
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