I think they have figured out that the rich neighborhoods are more likely to have fruit trees. Someone did a news story on 9 news a few years ago on it and how this organization was trying to fix it by offering trees for something like 10 or 15 dollars depending on income. With the factor of needing to own land to really grow fruit trees and trees possibly getting looted in poor areas I see how they can be seen as a luxury. Plus you spend between 30-110 dollars for a good tree online. My 4 in 1 mirabelle trees were 110, my 4 in 1 pluots were 60 on sale but prices increased to 110 for those ordering later on, my pears, cherries etc. from Raintree around 60, my peaches, pawpaw, apples etc. from One Green World, Bay Laurel and Burnt Ridge between 30-50 dollars. As someone making 25 dollars 30-50 dollars is not much for me but I know it was a lot when I was working at Home Depot for 11 dollars a hour. It is one of those situations where it is hard to get the trees and get them going for most people but once they are going you save a bunch of money.
The founding fathers of this country like Thomas Jefferson i see as important men. They believed in the American dream for everyone i think. All these years later it is a priveledge from my perspective to eat the same fruit he considered good! Seckel Pear | Thomas Jefferson's Monticello
"Thomas Jefferson planted a ‘Seckel Pear’ at Monticello in 1807, and said that this variety “exceeded anything I have tasted since I left France, and equalled any pear I had seen there.” A.J. Downing, America’s foremost nineteenth-century pomologist, agreed, saying “We do not hesitate to pronounce this American pear the richest and most exquisitely flavored variety known. In its highly concentrated, spicy and honied flavor, it is not equaled by any European variety. When we add that the tree is the healthiest and hardiest of all pear trees, it is easy to see that we consider no garden complete without it. It is believed to have originated on a farm outside of Philadelphia.”
The fruit of the Seckel Pear ripens in early fall, with its skin turning to dull yellowish-brown with a russet red cheek. Its flesh is whitish, buttery, very juicy and melting, with a spicy flavor and aroma."
Years later my seckle is hopefully the same one described.
I don’t really have a horse in this race, but some of the comments conjured a memory. I am now 71 years old. One day roughly 50 years ago, after dinner at my parents’ house, my immigrant grandfather and I went for a walk. After walking 1/3 mile or so, we noticed a mature pear tree, growing on the side of the road, loaded with ripe fruit. No doubt it was a legacy of the farm that once existed there. We picked a big bag full.
The tree is still there today. It must be at least 90 years old.
I now live 150 miles away. But there is another ancient pear tree growing in a field across the street. It is totally untended, again no doubt a relic of a past farm. There’s a Community Garden that operates 50 yards away, where volunteers grow vegetables for a local food bank. The pear tree is so inconspicuous that I had to point it out to the managers of the farm so that they could pick pears as well. So in early November each year, I pick a big bag of fruit and the Community Garden folks get the rest. And the deer.
My point (agreeing with a writer above) is just that a vigorous standard pear tree is a resource that lasts generations.
Love your story about you and your grandfather. Think you might really enjoy this thread Napoleon’s army planted pear trees fact or fiction? .To be able to see the pears Napoleons army planted is another priveledge. The video is very good Scenes from a village 33 - Napoleon's pear trees (2014) on Vimeo .Standard pears can live hundreds of years. This is from another thread i posted years ago
"I’m not sure this is a pear tree but this is what it said and what it looked like.
" Workers cut a tree, 1800s
Believe it or not, this vintage photo of working on the upper branches of trees is real! They were pruning it to bear more fruits and continue growing. For children reading this, please don’t try it at home. Those men may look cool trimming trees up there, but they were putting their lives on the line. Besides, they were professionals so they knew what they were doing." "
How much is a metric boatload?
I have a standard seckle pear from Stark Bros. I forget the price but it was something like 19 or 30 something dollars for the super large size because of the sale they were having. I got some pretty good deals at Stark Bros last year that I am not seeing this year. That standard size seckle for that amount and purple passion asparagus at 3 dollars for 10. Both purple passion and seckle are super good cultivars from what I read so I am surprised they had them in stock and were selling them at that price.
I would argue I have quite the collection of pears at this point. Warren on standard and OHxF 87, Magness on standard and OHXF 87, Comice on Standard and OHXF 87, Seckle on standard and Ayers pear on OHXF 87. I have a rogue red coming next year that I asked cummins to graft for me in 2022.
About 30 years ago, I wrote an article about inter and intra-tree shading for pecan trees. The angle of the sun changes over time which means shading effects vary day by day and hour by hour as the sun traverses the sky. Analyzed for rows planted east-west, the end result is that shading is close to the same for trees planted north-south. The optimum layout depends on when the tree matures fruit. For pecan, heaviest photosynthate drain is during September therefore optimum layout is to have as little inter-tree shading in September as possible. This can be calculated as a function of distance between trees and size of trees according to the layout they are planted on. For most trees, that optimum is a northeast to southwest row of trees such that trees in the row are close while rows of trees are further apart.
Other limiting factors are water availability, soil nutrient status, and competition from any weeds, grass in particular is bad.
Commercially, nobody in their right mind is going to plant anything but dwarf apple trees. Production per acre/hectare up to quadruples what can be done with standard size trees. You can’t win the argument that standard trees are more productive. In a commercial setting, standard trees lose out for a multitude of reasons, production is arguably the most important.
Make sure you understand what your signing up for. Consider in my soil standard pear trees never have got over 30 feet. As people plant and replace orchards every 15 years i will keep in mind that i can’t when the argument when i dont lose production on the trees 2x already i planted 30+ years ago. Every time their dwarfs die they are set back 3-5 years if they are non drought years. Then they fight deer, rabbits, water shortages, weather extremes, and all the things that go along with their perfect system while they try establishing new orchards. There is a reason i’m doing well with a pear orchard in Kansas. Though it might not work for you in your area dont knock it until you see the results in my area. When trees are removed and added years of work establishing a system is lost. That is work better spent picking pears rather than people standing around with shovels. The way commercial orchards make money doing it is by very expensive equipment. It is not sustainable the amount of water it takes in most regions to irrigate their dwarf trees. Like most modern agriculture people are often penny wise and pound foolish.
This is the breakdown
“Tree Density Guide
Semi-dwarf orchards today have densities
of 123-311 trees per acre at spacings of
16’ x 22’ to 10’ x 14’.
Dwarf orchards are planted with spacings
as tight as 2’ x 10’, but more commonly
4’ x 14’ and up to 7’ x 16’ for densities of
388-777 trees per acre.
Standard orchards are no longer planted
because they take too long to produce.
Today, high density means more than 500
trees to the acre and will exceed 1000+ with
multi row systems.
TREES 43,560 = ACRES L x W”
OrchardDensity.pdf (1.8 MB)
Every 1 acre inch of orchard uses 27,000 gallons of water every few days x 2 or 3 times. To simulate 2" rainfall they water 54,000 gallons of water every few days per acre.
" Water
You should only plant fruit trees where you have a water source for irrigation during the dry summer. Fruit trees, especially during the first four to five years, require watering to make good growth. When watering fruit trees, you should give them a deep soak that will penetrate several feet into the soil. The amount of water to do this will vary depending on the type of soil you have and the temperature and wind extremes at your site.
When watering fruit trees, you should give them a deep soak that will penetrate several feet into the soil.
Sandy soil will require more frequent watering than clay soil, but less water with each soaking. Clay soil will require more water with each soaking, but not as frequent as sandy soil. In general fruit trees like a deep soak (2–3 inches of water) every 10–14 days on sandy soil and every 15–20 days on clay soil. In western Oregon, fruit trees need to be watered starting in mid-June and ending in late September."
" Wildlife protection
Many wild animals will feast on your trees and their crops if not protected. Deer are usually the greatest pests of fruit trees. If you do not fence in your yard or put wire (fence) hoops around each tree, deer will destroy them.
Make wire fences 6–8 feet tall to keep out deer.
When using wire fences, you need to make them 6–8 feet tall to be effective. Narrow wire mesh on the lower two feet of your wire fence will keep out rabbits. Voles can be a problem if you allow tall grass to grow up to the trunks of the trees, providing shelter from predators. Keep grass cover mowed and deep mulch away from tree trunks to prevent vole feeding on bark. Birds and raccoons are attracted to the fruit. The only long-term solution to keeping them away from the crop is to cover trees with netting."
This section that followed the last two makes me smile. Be ready to do some serious pruning every year for espalier.
" Planting pattern
Most homeowners are interested in planning how to maximize their fruit production from a few trees since they do not have large plots for an orchard. This can be done by using dwarfing rootstocks to increase tree numbers, training fruit trees into hedgerows, training espalier plants next to their homes or grafting many varieties on to one tree. Give even dwarf trees at least 5 feet space between other trees to maintain some vigor and health."
In addition every 15 -20 years the soil will need prepared for the dwarfs that will need replanting.
Some dwarfs are lucky to make it 7-10 years. This argument between standards and dwarfs was fought in my family when i was still a child. My mom had dwarf fruit trees that died. My uncle who was a professional orchardist tried various things and because of labor constraints went long term with semi dwarfs which are about like standards in my soil. He pruned the tops down every year to 20 feet maximum. It is worth mentioning soil plays a role.
Preparing soil before planting is key to successful root growth | Good Fruit Grower
“Establishing a high-density orchard is costly. It is important to do it the right way, because you get only one chance. Once the orchard is established, it is difficult and costly to correct soil problems in later years.”
The idea of a high density orchard is to effectively reduce roots and focus on fruit. Consider what that actually means
Planting rows north south generally yields the best overall results if your planting many acres of orchard. In my orchard i do blocks of both. Most are north south per recommendation. There is no doubt shading can be a big problem in any orchard. My orchard is very comfortable to easily drive through but very high density you can barely walk through to prune.
Ultimately none of it is about production alone with an orchard under a thousand acres it is about quality not quantity. The smaller the orchard the higher the quality of fruit must be. In part of Colorado as an example they sell the highest price peaches around because of their unique climate Can High Density Orchards Yield More Crop per Drop? – Sustainability
The only actual dwarf pears are actually quince or other non pear rootstocks.
I’m literally laughing out loud here by your comment regarding rich neighborhoods have more fruit trees. Not around here.
In many areas like New York small orchards are mostly only grown by the priveledged few who succeeded by skill and luck. @alan has made a successful business by taking care of these orchards.
At this point, most of the orchards I manage are made up either entirely or mostly of trees I planted that I sized up in my nursery. Originally I got my business footing from properties that had very old and large apple trees on them, usually left over from a time when the “Big Apple” (NYC) had apples supplied from orchards located in nearby counties.
Commercial orchards are usually planted on properties with rolling hills with beautiful views. Along with beach front and river front property, this is the kind of land where mansions are built. The seedling rooted apple trees planted well into the 20th century live a long time and require a lot of labor to maintain as beautiful and fruitful trees. For some mansion owners they are specimen trees worthy of a high investment of upkeep.
I was the first person in my region I know of who made managing them a specialty. Lucky choice. Other choices I tried, like offering the planting of wildlife feeding stations and native plant meadows didn’t work out so well. On the latter I was two decades ahead of my time. Native mini-prairies are now quite the landscape fad and there are specialists in my area that make a living as consultants in establishing them on a few of the same estates where I ply my trade.
Always read the fine print before buying dwarfs which i think most people are set on doing. Many think they planted a dwarf and planted ohxf rootstocks which are really not much more dwarfing than callery. Think what 70-90% of size really means. Using Cotoneaster might be the best choice for true dwarfs that are also cold hardy Dew Drop Pear - #23 by northof53
https://treefruit.wsu.edu/web-article/pear-rootstocks/
“Pear varieties growing on OHxF or any Bartlett seedling rootstock tend to be large, non-porous trees. In order to get trees that are more suited to high-density plantings, rootstocks with dwarfing traits and precocity need to be used. In many parts of the world, Quince selections are used as rootstocks. This combination will result in dwarfed growth and precocity. However, Quince is not compatible as a rootstock for many varieties of pear such as Bartlett, Bosc, Forelle, Packham, Triumph, Winter Nellis and Eldorado. For these varieties, the use of an interstock (intermediate graft section) must be used. Another problem with using Quince is that most varieties are not winter hardy making it a poor choice for the Pacific Northwest.”
I’m not suggesting interstems cannot be used to do whatever you want The easiest pears to graft - pear interstems - #3 by clarkinks . Work smarter not harder and you will be successful as an orchardist. Some wont listen to a word i said because they have their mind made up. Everyone has to make their own choices but i strongly encourage everyone to read and consider what i said above. That is not to say to not plant a dwarf orchard. In my area if a person wants to fence acres off from deer, rabbits, racoon etc. It is their prerogative.
Clark, your argument is not properly set. For the homeowner, dwarf trees may be a landscaping choice because there is not much area to work with. They may also be a lifestyle choice because dwarf trees tend to bear fruit soon after planting as compared with standard trees. You are not “exposing the truth”, you are exposing “your” truth. That won’t work for a huge part of the fruit tree planting public. I personally have plenty of room and lots of time to watch trees grow. I’m grafting pear on Callery and apple on B118. I’m making choices for my life and the work I’m willing to perform.
Oscar, as an aside, I have a 40 foot espalier run based on the vertical model you posrtd. I have the cordons established and the uprights should devellop this year. Potentially I can have 40 varieties. On B-118 I might experiment with some winter banana interstems and throw some pears in the mix.
Thanks! I did enjoy the video. I had not idea that pears – any pears – could grow so big.
I’m gonna use this picture to persuade my wife that I’m actually very cautious in my picking.
That makes a lot of sense. The truth i’m hoping to expose is simply that dwarfs wont work for everyone. We have people in this area planting dwarfs. I’m trying to save them problems. Most people are learning the lessons im exposing the hard way. Dwarfs are a lot better in some cases. Fruitnut made great points about that early on. Have plenty of respect for these truths as well. Standard trees are what many go with later after the deer , weather , and rabbits finish up with them. If we discuss it now the future fruit growers may benefit from this. The truth is someone out there will benefit a lot from our hard work. Many of the fruit varities i developed or techniques i use are being used here by many people now. My approach to growing fruit is unorthodox though it does work here when little else does. I’m aware in most places commercial orchardist will keep right on planting dwarfs. It is proably in many of the commercial orchards best interest to continue to do that. The commercial growers success in other areas is why they fail In an area like mine.
Clark: Yours is a great choice for your area and your situation. You’ve got lots of land and a few big trees. That’s a good choice.
Others have a completely different situation. The commercial grower usually needs to squeeze every piece of fruit possible out of every sq ft of land. And return cash flow as quickly as possible.
Many here are squeezing every tree they can onto a small urban lot. Dwarfs make sense there for many reasons.
I’ve got a few trees spaced 15-20 ft apart outside. And many trees in the greenhouse spaced 3ftx7ft. Even outside I don’t want big trees for ease of thinning and I can only eat so much. I give away 90% of my pears.
And just as importantly, require significantly less input to achieve a harvest of highest quality fruit. Pruning them is so much less complicated with dwarfs and much less time consuming along with some other parts of maintenance. Clark has unlimited space and isn’t worried about bushels per acre and hours of labor to produce pristine apples. Commercial orchards in all parts of the country are almost exclusively using dwarfing rootstocks when replanted, or at least that is the overwhelming trend.
However, there are also many advantages to free-standing trees. They are less likely to be killed by a variety of pests and environmental problems, and when you plant one you are planting a legacy. As far as space, once more vigorous trees come into production they can be as productive as dwarfs and grafting several varieties on a tree can produce an orchard in a single tree. Most importantly, it’s easier to lift the crop above deer and leaping squirrels on baffled trees.
I only grow pears and stone fruit on seedling rootstocks or clones that grow trees that stand on there own roots. Apple trees on seedlings are mostly a thing of the past and are not even readily available commercially, although I have created orchards by grafting over stands of seedling apple trees.
do you mean in the style of this article?
Basically UFO training method (Cherry) or similar to guyot (grape)
I’m planning on growing all my tree’s that way. And grafting different varieties for the verticals.