Chad Finn was behind most of the west coast berries He also worked on Triple Crown. He has passed sadly.
In my ranking for flavor its thorned, west coast, USDA, then UofArk.
However UofArk canes are more easily managed and higher production…whereas west coast varieties are trailing…
@Drew51 … I dont mind thorns… my Illini have some serious thorns… and I dont agree with their favor rating for ilinni either… to me they are much better than wild berries… larger and sweeter.
Do you know of a source for newberry ?
If they are early enough… I might want to try them.
I agree. But in our trials of about 8 varieties side by side for years now, most others look good to great and all the Triple Crown vines at this point look like they got blow torched. It’s a PNW cultivar and does great there, here in our area it does OK for a number of years and then seems to fizzle out. We are in a rural area with lots of wild vines around and thus lots of pest pressure. I’ve learned over the years that growing fruit in the city and growing fruit in a rural area are two very, very different ball games. In most cases it’s surprisingly much easier in the city than in the country due to the urban advantages of: less pest pressure, warmer micro climates, less wind velocity, earlier spring warmups, less late frosts, better drainage in most yards, less animals, etc. I’m not sure where you’re located. We’re in rural KY which is a veritable battleground when trying to grow fruit! Years ago I thought it would be the opposite.
Further, cultivars respond drastically different to whatever conditions (climate/soil) they are grown in. You may have very healthy rich soil, etc. but if the cultivar you plant is ill-adapted to your climate than it will be under stress and often be susceptible to insects and disease, no matter how ‘good’ the soil is. Soil health is one basis of plant health (an important one). Yet, heat, cold, sunlight intensity, wind, seasonal length, etc. all affect plants as well, and can make or break them. That’s why cultivar selection is so vital, especially in challenging environs.
Most PNW berry and other fruit cultivars tend to do poorly in the Mid Atlantic for that same reason- more heat, more bugs, colder winters, more summer rains, etc. here, than there. Being in a city buffers those dynamics and effects somewhat.
This dynamic of cultivar variance holds true for any types of cultivated plants. We have excellent soil on our farm and tend it very well (Certified Organic, basically no till, excellent cultural conditions, proper trellising, good airflow, full sun, etc.) For whatever reason TC is less adapted to our region than many others, and seems to fail to thrive here for very long. It does not handle rednecked borers well and they are all over here. I also have trialed other PNW hybrid berries like those mentioned in this thread here and they were all fails for one reason or another. I do not spray any of our berries.
By the way, rednecked borers love healthy plants with large juicy fat canes! Insects and animals are attracted to nutritious, pampered crops. Insects and disease rarely will become infestations or plagues of crops grown in healthy soil, but that doesn’t mean they won’t show up. They like nutrition and flavor as much as we do. For instance, no matter how healthy the soil apples are grown in is, apple trees susceptible to Cedar Apple Rust are going to be covered in it if CAR spores are in your area (yeah, they’re everywhere here).
Many or most modern cultivated selections of fruits lack natural defenses against insects and disease, even when grown in healthy conditions. As of the 20th Century, fruits were usually not selected or bred with inherent resistances as a focus, the majority of fruits being bred only for decent flavor, ship-ability and heavy production while heavily relying on chemical sprays for defense, something the breeders (Universities mostly) assumed most or all growers would be utilizing. The majority of seedling selections done by amateurs or fence row finds are offspring of the same and have many of the same susceptibilities found in the parents. Thankfully Universities are now shifting gears towards a strong focus on breeding resistant plants, and some have for decades now.
What we as fruit growers are growing these days are mostly all very complex hybrids of excessively chemically pampered parentage, and so finding and identifying fruit cultivars with inherent genetic resistance to severe pest and disease pressure is a very important goal all sensible fruit growers should be focusing on, whether you are organic or not. Good soil can help a plant express it’s inherent genetic defense capabilities and capacity towards resistance, but does not magically grant it just because it provides good nutrition, despite what some may claim.
Any of you growing Brazos blackberries? I grew them many years ago and they produced well. My mother made a wonderful jelly with them. They were always a little tart when ripe. These days I pick wild dewberries that are usually plentiful on the farm if we don’t have a lot of dry weather when they are making.
I’m very impressed with the University of Arkansas blackberries like prime gem, 45, freedom with gem being my least favorite of those 3. The latest ones i.have not tried yet. My heirlooms my grandfather passed down to me are not well behaved but i.love the flavor.
I have added Ponca, and I did like Navaho too. I agree cane management is a lot easier. I removed Navaho, and it keeps growing back, Well maybe it’s Triple Crown? I decided to let it go and grow again. . It ripens in SWD season here.
I’m going to try again. The SWD fruit fly has calmed down some around here. Something is eating them? (Yeah!)
I have heard others say it’s decent. I could not find it and added Darrow instead. Old school eastern blackberries have a place in my garden for sure.
If you mean Prime Jim, there was also a Prime Jan… those are pretty obsolete now.
If you have the space for it, try Apache. Canes are strong, thornless, upright…nice sized berries and great flavor. If you want to take a bunch of berries to market Ouachita is hard to beat.
By any chance did all of your Triple Crown come from the same vendor?
I had something similar happen here in WV. I had to pull TC that i had bought from one vendor as they all likely came in with some kind of disease. Same thing with Von. Took about 2 years to show good sign of root disease.
I bought TC from another vendor and they grow like Frankensteins monster here.
Just going out on a limb here to not fully write off TC if any of the above is a possibility.
I had issue with cane borers a couple of years ago… it takes a diligent effort with secateurs to get them in check…
I lived in KY for about 12 years… and visit a couple of times a year… lovely state and wonderful people. We are much less populated here in WV and we have alot more hills and hollars… which to me is Almost Heaven.
I’m have a few Rosborough blackberries that I understand are similar to Brazos. I should get a decent crop this year from them. A friend of mine’s dad used to grow blackberries when we were kids. I remember them being big, plentiful, and delicious. I found out recently that those plants were Brazos. The old man didn’t share my memories and said they weren’t that sweet?
Brazos is mostly for cooking. Kinda acid flavored. Released in 1959…not the best choice for fresh eating.
Rosborough is sweeter than Brazos and is an early berry.
Much better choices out there for flavor…
The description for Brazos has always made me wonder if it would be a good candidate for blackberry wine.
Black Satin would be a very good candiate. It yields high and is a very nice plant… probably my least favorite fresh eating.
Experiences in West Central Georgia.
Apache- avoid- suffers from terrible “white drupe.” see Blackberries with white druplets. Good flavor, easy to manage canes, good sized berry. White drupe problem got worse every year until I yanked them.
Kiowa: Thorns are no joke, vigorous (and likely to spread several feet underground) canes that will need a lot of management, huge berries, very productive, great taste for some berries. Have to hang on the plant until dead ripe or they will be sour. They are dead ripe only when they lose some of their glossiness and are very easily picked. Got a lot of red necked cane borers and some sort of crown borers and root gall. Some white drupelets, but not nearly as bad as Apache. Eventually yanked them. Still have volunteers popping up years later from leftover roots.
Navaho: small berries, often berries that are only partially filled out, not productive at all, not great cane renewal, best tasting, to me and the birds.
Ouachita: fairly productive, fairly vigorous canes, decent sized berry, mediocre taste. I still have a few around but I wouldn’t get them again.
My taste preferences are a strong blackberry flavor with some sweetness and some tartness. None of these match the flavor of good wild blackberries, Navaho is close. All of them taste better than the average wild blackberry. My flavor preferences were Navaho, then Apache, then Kiowa (but has some great tasting berries among the average), then Oauchita. All of these berries have somewhat large seeds which bothers some people but was never an issue for me.
@haldog … you might like Illini hardy.
Not sure if you can still find them for sale anywhere… I got mine in 2002.
They taste just like wild TN blackberries… (true wild blackberry flavor) but average 2x size and are a bit sweeter.
When you say root disease, are you referring to Crown Gall?
That’s an interesting possibility. Was your method for red necked borers to just cut off the swelled up canes as soon as you saw them?
I’ve been to WV a couple times, surprisingly beautiful place.
A ripe Brazos is good, no doubt. I remember being young and eating any ripe berry or fruit that I could get.
I’ve had Kiowa growing here for more than 15 yrs. Huge berries- I can pick a gallon pail full in less than 10 minutes. Heavy production over a long period. Good flavor. But as others have indicated, best if left til they lose glossiness. Thorny? You bet! But worth the ‘danger’.
I put in Ponca last year, probably gonna plant some Caddo & Ouachita this year, and maybe some new Kiowa plants.
Could be a number of things… Anthracnose, Cane Gall, Crown Gall, Hairy Root, Root Knot, or any Viral Disease… The reason why most people buy plugs is that they are usually pretty virus free… i hate plugs so i try to buy 2yr old bare roots… then u never know what you are going to get as far as viruses…just hope for the best.
If there is a chance that you got the plants from the same vendor…you may have just gotten diseased plants from the get go…
Maybe try another source and trial it again. Try Chester as well if you havent yet.
As for cane borers…yes as soon as you see the rings start chopping.
When i get new plants in, i quarantine them… rinse the roots about 10 times and Immunox them… ive wasted years on bad plants so i try not to repeat it.
Trevor can i hit you up for some illni hardy spouts/roots next may? id like to trial them here and compare to my nelsons.
@steveb4 … I would be happy to do that Steve… but my Illini have never produced root shoots… they send up primocanes very close to the crown… never a root shoot… and they are very erect too … never tip rooted either.
I may be able to force one to tip root next year… bend one over and into a pot.
Warning… my Illini do have some double blossom (rosette ???)… so you may not want them. Our wild berries carry that and can give it to your tame canes. Mine have had double blossom for 5 or 6 years now… it does affect the fruiting some… big sections of blossoms will turn reddish then brown… and no fruit. I do still get lots of good berries from them despite it. I prune out the bad spots… but I have read that it is impossible to get rid of.
Floricanes pass it to primocanes each year… so it will always be there.