It can be annoying though, because, by way of added experience, opinions change based on new info, just like science, except via anecdote. Politicians are often undermined by the opposition for changing positions, making them appear inconsistent and unreliable when really, the ability to change opinions can often be the result of having an open mind to new information.
My opinion now is that there is something defective about its flowers as suggested by another contributor earlier and that hand pollination just multiplies the opportunity of overcoming this defect.
Also interesting that lost and forgotten plums (and other fruits) are making a comeback it seems.
But without reference its hard to tell when someone is talking about Flavor Gem that they are also talking about Emerald Gem or to the lower class citizens Emerald Drop.
Which one is Flavor King? Which one is an obscure Japanese plum?
The only way to know is if you have an excellent memory… or the older posts here and elsewhere still exist.
The difference between pluots and plums seems fairly clear to me. Pluots get high brix while still relatively firm- but then, there are many Japanese plums I’ve never tasted, so that may create a limited information base. But somehow it seems likely that any plum that naturally develops notably higher brix than others would not remain in obscurity unless it was very difficult to make productive- like Flavor Supreme.
Elephant Heart is the plum that most resembles pluots in terms of being delicious while still being pretty firm and I suspect that all the red to purple fleshed pluots have a lot of its specific DNA. Elephant Heart is also ono of the least reliable croppers of J.plums I grow, however, I suspect that in my region, poor cropping can come from having more freeze delicate ovules. I grew Elephant Heart in S. CA as a boy and it seems it was much more dependable there. However, I only grew it there in a single location. The squirrels and/or coons usually got the fruit before I did. I didn’t know how to protect the fruit back then.
I should add that I’ve come to the conclusion that ovules are the most delicate part of a stonefruit’s flower because on several occasions when we’ve had sudden dip freeze events in spring or very late winter, varieties like Elephant Heart may flower profusely with well tended blooms and fail to set any fruit. Same with nectarines.
Here is an example of why I love Chat. Hours of struggling through Google advertising would not bring me this information. This is information that I would never have found if I didn’t ask the right question that was based on experiences that inspired the question.
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You said:
I’ve come to the conclusion that many varieties of stone fruit can have destroyed ovules from a freeze event but otherwise produce blooms that are well tended by pollinators but absolutely fail to produce fruit. Do you have any research that supports my conclusion.
ChatGPT said:
ChatGPT
Your conclusion is well-supported by research on the effects of frost or freeze damage on stone fruit, and it highlights a critical issue that growers face. Here’s an overview of what the research says:
How Freeze Damage Affects Ovules and Fruit Set
Anatomy of the Problem:
Freeze events can damage specific parts of the flower, especially the ovules, which are essential for fertilization and subsequent fruit development. Even if the petals and other parts of the bloom appear normal (and attract pollinators), damaged ovules cannot support the formation of viable seeds, leading to fruit failure.
Pollinator Activity vs. Ovule Viability:
Pollinators may still visit and perform their role effectively, as they are primarily responding to visual and olfactory cues from the flowers. However, their activity won’t result in fruit if the ovules are non-functional. This often misleads growers into thinking the pollination process was faulty when the real issue is freeze damage.
Research Evidence:
Temperatures and Critical Periods: Studies have shown that stone fruit ovules are particularly vulnerable during the early bloom and pre-bloom stages. Temperatures below a critical threshold (often around 27°F/-3°C or lower for many stone fruits) can kill ovules while leaving the rest of the flower intact.
4.Source: Weinberger, J. H. (1950). “Chilling and Frost Damage to Deciduous Fruits” (USDA).*
Detection Challenges: The damage to ovules may not be immediately visible, making it harder for growers to diagnose the cause of poor fruit set. Examination under magnification or dissection is often required.
5.Source: Westwood, M. N. (1993). “Temperate-Zone Pomology.”*
Bloom and Freeze Timing: Studies on cherries and apricots have shown that flowers at “open bloom” are more resistant to frost than buds, but the ovule is still the most temperature-sensitive part.
6.Source: Fact Sheets from UC Davis and WSU on frost protection in orchards.*
Practical Implications for Growers
Frost Damage Monitoring: Post-freeze, it’s critical to dissect flowers and examine pistils and ovules for discoloration or browning, which are signs of damage.
Preventative Measures: Frost protection techniques, like wind machines, irrigation, and frost fans, can help maintain temperatures above the critical threshold. Timing bloom for later in the season through varietal selection or growth regulators can also mitigate risk.
Further Reading
For deeper insights:
“Stone Fruit Bloom and Frost Damage” by the University of California Cooperative Extension.
Washington State University’s resources on frost damage and pollination in orchards.
Your observation aligns with well-documented physiological responses in stone fruits to freeze events. Proactive management and diagnostic techniques can help mitigate these risks. Let me know if you’d like help accessing specific studies or resources!
I pollinate with a small paint brush. My thought is the flowers of FS lack the olfactory attraction needed for bees to pollinate the flowers.
I don’t agree with this part. Open flowers are more sensitive to freezes than flower buds at an earlier stage. None of what you got from the computer impresses me in this case. Damage to ovules is visually obvious as soon as the flower thaws out. Damage as in dead. Could there be hidden damage like frost rings, yes.
I have experience that confirms this where we had a late hard freeze and the peach varieties about 3 days ahead bore fruit, those behind didn’t.
I also have seen plenty of bees tending to FS flowers-do you have contradictory experience or just prefer that theory to.one that suggests the problem lies in the structure of the flower where pollinators can collect pollen without getting it to the ovules. Perhaps your brush reaches where the bees don’t.
My Flavor King is still going strong, and now produces hundreds of delicious fruits every year. People at work even ask for them and say they are the best plum they have ever eaten. It might be a regional thing because I feel the same way.
I have never tried a Flavor Supreme. I planted one last spring. It hasn’t bloomed yet but has putt on a lot of growth like any other stone fruit. I hope it taste as good as you guys say it does.
About the pollination issues does fruit set improve as it gets older? The elephant heart plumb would produce mostly male flowers for its first 5 years before it started to set a lot of fruit. Also has anyone tried using mason bees to pollinate? I rase mason bees and noticed a huge increase in fruit set on all of my trees when I started using them. Some times it seems like they over pollinate if that is possible. It sure seems like it when you have to thin hundreds of fruits per tree.
I am not like FN and I don’t tend to favor one particular fruit to the exclusion of other high quality fruit. For example, Flavor Gem and Ruby Queen had ripe fruit at the same time in my orchard and even though Flavor Gem had the highest brix I ever got from a plum I enjoyed eating the Queen plums just as much even if brix was around 10 points lower. The beautiful color of its flesh and its special meatiness among other things made eating them just as enjoyable to me as the sugar sweet Gems.
Here in S.NY Flavor Gem is the most promising pluot I’ve grown, at least in my own orchard. In others I manage, Grenade has done very well. Flavor King did well on a graft until it broke from the weight of the fruit. I’m trying to get the variety up and running again. When I do, I won’t make that mistake again which was based on neglect rather than ignorance. It was a difficult to reach branch and I was too lazy to get the ladder. I have a very extensive orchard.
I am also a big fan of Spring Satin aprium. In its season it is the best tasting fruit I have although I’m not sure how consistent of a cropper it will be here. It’s been bearing fruit for the last 4 seasons but only this past season did it have a heavy crop. I will not cut it down if it’s usually a light cropper though, at least until a better variety appears that bears in its season.
I live in Utah so a very dry summer, lots of sun with irrigation . Also alkaline clay soil and large temperature swings between night and day. I have a few trees in my backyard so not a lot to compare with. Most of the orchards around here grow flavor grenade, I’m not a big fan. It has a nice texture but flavor wise it doesn’t stack up.
I am eventually going to remove my elephant heart. I don’t know what is wrong with it but it doesn’t taste good. I remember as a kid my grandmas tasted incredible, but like the earlier posts mentioned who knows if that is accurate. It’s not just me either everyone who has tasted it is not impressed and frankly I would rather have another peach in its spot. This year we had a very late frost and the hottest fall I can remember and it was just starting to approach Flavor King.
I forgot to mention a perfectly ripe flavor king off my tree is as good as any other fruit I have ever tasted. Also the fruit hangs on the tree for a long time so no need to have a rushed harvest. There are 6 people in my household and we all ate 3-5 fruits a day for around a month.
I’ve gotten trees from reputable nurseries that were not true to their name. Is your experience with Elephant Heart based on a single tree there? If so, you might want to try grafting a scion from an Elephant Heart of a tree known to produce delicious fruit.
My problem with the variety is a general lack of productivity and a tendency for pitch pockets. You are the first person I’ve read of who had a tree that produced off tasting fruit.
It is easy to tell when it’s ripe by feeling the fruit. I’m sure Greg has a handle on that. It also holds on the tree for a while once ripe and even can be picked firm ripe and still have good flavor in my own experience. Like all plums, it is sour until it is ripe.
Any answers I get from Chat I digest through a lifetime of experience with growing fruit. Well, not quite a lifetime. I started caring for fruit trees on my Father’s property when I was about 12 years old, so we are talking about a measly 60 years. I didn’t plant an Elephant Heart on his property until I was about 16 though.
Most plums look ripe before they are ripe, but they never feel ripe before they are. Elephant Heart and all the pluots I’ve grown can get sweet while still quite firm, so they can be ripe before they feel like it- but EH less than the pluots I have experience with. The Aprium Spring Satin, on the other hand, looks ripe for weeks before it should be harvested and needs to be somewhat soft before it reaches high quality.
Late to the party here… FK has become one of my favorite plums in the last few years, it has a unique quenching flavor. It requires synthetic disease control in my climate as it is very prone to brown rot. The picking window is a bit tricky, they need to hang long but not until they soften significantly, they start to lose flavor then.
FS I like even more but gave up on it due to the pollination issue. I tried hand pollinating with various other plum pollen and it didn’t help at all. So I top worked it.
Suggesting strongly that it isn’t a typical pollination issue. Even when pollinated it seems likely to me that the pollen doesn’t reach the ovules. The difficulty also seems to occur in weather not affected by spring frosts so I’m sticking to the defective flower theory.
At some point I stopped trying pluots as I was not a super fan. But I should probably try a few more here, I am about 20 years behind the times on the varieties and have heard good things about several of the newer ones.
Hand pollination of FS has worked for me and it seems like several others as I recall. And once I got a big crop using honeybees outdoors. That was with several varieties of pluot in pots. I grouped them up as tightly as possible around the FS. The branches were intertwined. In the GH I’ve noticed on many occasions that the bumblebees approach the FS flower and then fly off to something else without working FS. By and large the bees avoid it.
I have a wide range of natural pollinators, some prefer one type of flower over others. If my FS flowers next season I will look again, but I’m always checking out the buzzers and watching them tend my orchard tree blossoms- especially my plums and pluots and have never observed them avoiding FS. Bumble bees can be a bit particular, I think. They don’t much work my pears.
I’m surprised you get many seasons there where any type of J. plum bears fruit outdoors. Some types don’t seem to require much freeze to destroy the ovules.
Here in nor cal FS is the perfect fruit to grow! No thinning neccesarry, and sets a really nice crop. Excellent flavor, and an early harvest. I have 2 trees loaded with some of the best fruit of the season! FK is also exceptional, as well, but you must thin a lot, so not as ideal. The Flavor of both is top notch! And dried FK rules when mixed with pears! Both are must haves. I do have lots of pollinators, and I hate thinning fruits for 2 months! So this is an advantage to FS!
I have a small flavor king tree that I grafted this spring. I don’t know what it’s up to, but it’s still holding its leaves. All my other stone fruit trees dropped their leaves a while back, but that little FK tree still thinks its growing season. It’s been a really mild fall herel, so I guess it’s just confused. Lots of other weird things going on because of the warm fall weather. Daffodils are starting to come up, and summer chip bud grafts starting to grow in Nov and other weirdness. It kind of looks like one of my Rhodos is almost ready to flower as well. Very warm weather so far this Nov & Dec. I think we had a mild touch of frost a week ago, but other than that it’s been above freezing since summer. I’ve been out planting fruit trees for the last several weeks in shorts and no shirt on. It’s not looking to be a white Christmas this year, unless the weather changes quite drastically. You can get pretty sick of the rain here, but I’m not missing the total lack of ice and snow this fall.
