What I will say is baker creek has some selections I don’t see anywhere else due to their foreign products. A few years ago I got a type of asparagus that was from France that would produce in 2 years from seed vs 3 or 4. It is the 3rd year now and it is producing as big or bigger stalks of asparagus as my purple passion that was 1 year old. That is what I like about baker creek is their selection can be big and unique if you look hard enough for something good.
1 Like
Squash are divided into 4 groups, C Moschata (butternut and cow types), C. pepo (summer squash, acorn, crookneck), C. Maxima (most large pumpkins), and C. argyrosperma (turk head). A few other species are sometimes grown but usually are not referred to as pumpkins. I could grow 1 variety of each species with no crossing. I don’t grow maxima or argyrosperma because they are not adapted to my climate or have huge problems with pests.
Cantaloupes are divided into 3 major groups, muskmelons, asian melons, and honeydews. Muskmelons and honeydews should be separated. I’ve grown asian melons and cantaloupes right beside each other for years with zero crossing.
2 Likes
I believe there are three species of “squash”- moschata, pepo, and maxima. None of the three will cross but within those species you need to take precautions to maintain seed lines
1 Like
what he said…
2 Likes
I agree that they bring some interesting things in. I just think they aren’t always very transparent about how things will or won’t perform, and they aren’t particularly careful stewards of what’s in their care.
This helped me put my finger on it a bit more. I think a lot of the value in heirlooms is the stories and history around them. Baker Creek seems to just be reading the headlines.
2 Likes
I liked reading about it until ads started popping up on my screen from their site.
1 Like
I feel many nursery are not transparent on how things will or won’t perform to be honest. That is something with the trade of nursery industry. I have asked about plants performing and they are either vague on it or it will work great. I remember reading someone say no one will talk bad about their baby and the same goes with selling stuff. You will have a hard time finding someone saying it won’t work and an even harder time finding someone who will not sell you a plant or seed not good for your area. They just won’t warranty it and only mention that in their warranty print. It is interesting to read the backstory of heirlooms but I think most buy heirlooms because if they are not grown by other plants of the same type they will grow pretty much true to name. Hybrid will have deviation but the heirloom plants have had their genetics bred out which is pretty vital for seed saving. I have even heard gardeners refer to heirloom seeds as open software and hybrids as closed software where the nursery have more control of the hybrids than the heirlooms. For that reason there are more hybrids on the market than heirlooms since it is not as desirable in the nursery trade as heirlooms since there is more $$$ in hybrids. That is why there was likely backlash on the GMO tomato too. There is worry of people putting a patent on a GMO piece and it spreading to other heirlooms when seed is saved and then those who saved seed get sued for patent infringement.
Many are dishonest and not transparent, but Baker Creek somehow manages to get kudos and accolades.
My “best in class” examples are Johnny’s and Fedco, for slightly different reasons. Both are very transparent about where their seeds come from (especially Fedco), what conditions they are likely to perform well or poorly in, and have extensive educational materials. Johnny’s even gives data sheets, germination temp curves, and photos with different varieties compared side-by-side.
2 Likes
Not sure how I feel about the GMO purple, feels more gimmicky than taste-driven.
It’s not purple inside, of course, but I’ve been selecting strains of “Queen of the Night” that throw solid black (except right under the calyx). A few photos to show off a few from last year, plus a more typical specimen showing the very pretty galaxy markings.
For me, taste comes first, and these are really superb. None of that superficial smoke you get with a lot of anthros; just deep, balanced rich tomato flavor, not too sweet and not too tangy. There’s better flavor to be had from certain heirloom beefsteaks, but growing outside (no greenhouse) in England, I’m really happy with how good these come out, and with a dad who did a whole master’s in tomatoes who grows about an acre in PA every year just for home use, you can bet I’m picky with 'em. 
3 Likes
You are working with some of Jim Myers breeding work. He used genes atv and Aft to produce fruits with high levels of anthocyanin. I have not yet found a really good flavored tomato with high levels of anthocyanin. Baggage genes from the wild species degrade the flavor. I’m currently growing half a dozen dark fruited lines hoping one or two of them eventually stabilize into a good flavored tomato.
https://www.cell.com/molecular-plant/fulltext/S1674-2052(19)30409-5
3 Likes
black krim?
Black Krim is a chlorophyll accumulator, not anthocyanin.
3 Likes
interesting.
What’s the reasoning that anthocyanin is so sought after in tomatoes? I get that anthocyanin is good for you but so are many other polyphenols. So if tomatoes are already healthy, and anthocyanin’s are already abundant in many other foods, why the push to breed them into tomatoes?
And aren’t anthocyanin’s damaged by cooking, and most tomato consumption is through cooking first? Why not more of an effort to increase lycopene which is already common in tomatoes, and it sounds like it’s helped by cooking. The whole thing confuses me. Curious what others think about it.
Is the purple fleshed tomato market mostly just for the beauty aspect of it?
1 Like
Tomato consumption being cooked vs raw depends on the person. I use a lot of tomatoes and peppers but my tomato consumption is mainly put into things but uncooked. Hamburgers where you had a slice, salsa or guacamole where it is crushed, burrito where it is diced etc.
1 Like
But on average though across all tomato consumption in the US. I mean developing a GMO tomato must be pretty expensive. I wonder who is the primary target, and what’s the selling point?
Like I mentioned above health and the idea of growing something unusual. I have seen people rank food they can grow by health benefits. There is plenty of scams out there like blue watermelon/ blue Venus fly trap/ blue strawberry. Many people will claim pink lemonade blueberry taste like lemonade or pink fleshed apples like the mountain rose apple taste like fruit punch but once people try them they say it tastes like a typical fruit. Clearly there is a market for unusual colors. For me personally if the comment above was true about cold hardiness I would be more interested in a tomato that could be perennial to say zone 2 and up.
1 Like
The cold hardiness piece is definitely interesting. But it seems like to go to the effort of developing a GMO product, you would have a clear and presumably profitable market already lined up. And if the market is indeed just the curious home gardener, and I think you’re right that it is, then we should expect to see a lot more gmo’s coming to market for us.
People used to say don’t worry about GMO as a home gardener. They can’t afford to sell those seeds to you anyway.
But I don’t think the GMO purple tomato has anything to do with health. It’s about opening an untapped market for GMO. There is profit to be had, and we’ll be seeing more products like this for home growers. It won’t be relegated to just tomatoes.
1 Like
The red fleshed apples, at least the ones I’ve had, and as reported by other people I don’t think are lying, can have some distinct berry flavors to them. Banana and pineapple are other flavors some cultivars produce sometimes as well. People have varying degrees of accuracy in identifying specific flavors, the color of the food can throw people off, and marketers will bullshit to sell novelty.
I can’t say personally as I have never tried red fleshed apples. What I will say is at least with my purple and green asparagus I don’t seem to notice a massive difference in taste. I see a massive improvement being able to eat it fresh as fresh just tastes miles above the supermarket for asparagus but my green and purple taste similar. It does sound more interesting to grow a different color and there is the factor of it is less likely to be stolen due to people not recognizing it or thinking it is diseased. Obviously you start to get a black or purple tomato with traction they may start to recognize it still though which negates part of the purpose.