I’m diving pretty deep into American persimmons right now and can’t seem to narrow down my list of wanted varieties. I realize of course you can graft more than one scion to a rootstock but is there a limit? I have several 1.5-2 foot rootstocks available to me. Would it be feasible to graft 3-4 scions per rootstock?
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i have no experiance with persimmons.
But if made multiple multi variety apple tree’s.
Does your rootstock have side branches thick enough for grafting? or are they single whips?
I’m assuming the second. If you graft on the side of the branch (side graft, chip bud, t-bud etc) you can fit multiple varieties on a single whip. It is however hard to get them all to grow.
the max i’d say you could get to relatively reliably grow would be 3 per rootstock (on new apple rootstocks. dunno about persimon)
I did a bunch of tree’s with 2 buds opposite each other. With chip bud grafting. (like on the picture, before wrapping)
And 1 bud slightly above it in between the 2. (90 degree from the 2 buds below)
This way you get a left middle(top) and right variety. All 3 can be different. I have had to pinch the fastest growing grafts a few times. but when i did got 80-90% of my tripple variety tree’s to grow all 3 grafts.
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What do the crotch angles end up being like on the triple grafts?
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the crotch angles on the left and right bud where good. The top one i let go straight up. And weirdly enough often did not grow more than the side branches (although i did put the less vigorous varieties on top)
I however would note that i did this, because i got gifted 70+ varieties of apple scions and had limited rootstocks that year. Works great to grow for a few year and taste all the varieties. However most of the tree’s i grew this way i would not want to keep for their whole life. Although quite a few could have a nice framework with some pruning. And quite a bit could become step over/espalier if i pruned off the top branch. My goal however was/is to taste all the varieties for a few years and than decide which ones i want and graft those on my “permanent” tree’s.
quite a few tree’s i pinched some grafts that grew if some of the chip buds did not grow a branch. Those had quite reliably growing of all 3 grafts. On those i did not pinch. The grafts still took. but usually 2/3 grew. And now 3 years later, i could force the graft that didn’t grow. But i would loose a lot of wood with spurs/apples.
to be honest, looking back i would wish i had bought more rootstocks. since labeling became kind of a pain. And if one of the 3 varieties had a latent virus, now all 3 have it. I however did only graft varieties on each tree, that came from the same source.
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Typically, certain fruits like persimmon i caution people against multi graft. I’m not saying you can’t do it, but im saying one will likely take dominance eventually and persimmons self prune. If you graft 3 branches all growing fine persimmons have a tendency to favor one and self prune the other 2 leaving you with one variety per tree again. Once in awhile a persimmon has two stocks growing up from the base and in that case it might work to grow 2 types by grafting one to each of the 2 trunks. People do graft like this with persimmon suckers as they occur.
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You may have to wait a few years before adding other varieties to established persimmon trees.
I have not experienced this… but have heard others here say that persimmons will often self prune limbs lower on the tree. So there is a good chance that as the tree grows and matures… grafts added lower on the tree may be self pruned.
A graft added high on the south (sunny side) should remain… for some years anyway.
I have prok, ws8-10, rich tooie, zima khurma, coroa de ria, jt02, kassandra, nikitas gift all on their own individual rootstock (wild dv).
Added those last spring…
This spring… will be grafting H118, H63A, Mohler, Journey, Dar Sofiyivky… each on their own individual wild dv rootstock.
I have IKkJiro (planted last spring) and adding Cardinal this spring.
I dont usually go overboard on any one type of fruit tree… but think I have done that with persimmons. I have an abundance of free wild dv rootstocks here… that just grow like crazy in my fields. Seems like it would be a shame not to put those to good use 
TNHunter
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yeah, keeping everything straight on multigraft trees can get crazy. I have a friend with several frankentree apples. He has something like 75 varieties on one of them! They’re on Antanovka, but even at that most varieties get very little real estate! Imagine what a nightmare pruning is! Two varieties is not unreasonable on a young rootstock. Ive done it here with side veneer grafts. You can insert them anywhere you choose along the stem, and I often do 2 or more, sometimes as many as 5, even if its a single variety. Thatd be for a field graft when I want to split the vigor or perhaps for a precious variety
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I agree with this. I’d grow out the rootstock, creating 4 scaffolds pointing NSEW. Once the scaffolds are at least pencil thickness, cut them back to ~6" and graft to the stubs. You prune in order to minimize the surface of the rootstock because all rootstock growth must be removed, so you want less of it.
FWIW, I have used a more established tree in exactly this way excerpt I have more branches. It currently carries 4 American varieties, one Asian, one hybrid.
As previously stated, ‘self-pruning’ is a significant concern with D.virginiana understock. Less-vigorous, or lower-placed grafts will have a tendency to ‘disappear’ over time.
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This warning about self-pruning is appropriate. The main issue you want to avoid is upper branches shading desirable lower branches. The lower branches will eventually abort. You can avoid this by growing an open center with 3-4 main scaffolds, each holding one grafted variety. Train the scaffolds to grow outward.
In my limited experience, there is one other issue. On any scaffold, outer branches will come to dominate inner branches. So for example, if you graft two locations on one scaffold, the location closer to the central leader seems more likely to fail. It’s as if the outer graft has a stronger call on the tree’s resources.
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I have another question about multi-grafting persimmons. When I’m grafting to a seedling rootstock, I’m always extra vigilant about removing growth from the understock. With that in mind, how do you add a variety to an established tree? Do you just not worry about it? Graft multiples and hope one takes? Graft on ALL the branches and remove all competing growth?
I don’t intend for it to permanently stay a multiple variety tree. I just want to trial out a few different varieties and let whichever one I like best take over. Assuming I can pick just one, that is…
@jcguarneri Ive had good luck grafting over multiple leaders. I let the rootstock establish and form nice well spaced scaffolds, and then graft onto them low down near where they branch. My method, as Ive detailed it elsewhere is to leave the leader in place for a season but remove new growth except from the graft. By the following year, the tree has transitioned to pushing growth from the graft and the old leader can be removed, leaving a new variety as the scaffold. That way, you avoid aborted growth due to grafting far out on the limb structure where staying power is more tenuous
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That makes sense. I’ll have to try that approach. Still have a month and a half to think about it, but that sounds like a promising option.
I have one multi-variety tree, which was sold to me as Prok grafted onto seedling DV. A few years ago, I decided to top-work it, experimenting with new varieties. I’ve successfully grafted 4 Americans (H63A, Barbra’s Blush, Dollywood, and Morris Burton), 1 Asian (Miss Kim), and 1 hybrid (JT-02). All but Miss Kim have fruited. In each case, I attempted 3-4 bark grafts at 1-2 sites on a branch; I’d use 2 sites if the branch forked. I had very good success when there was 1 site on a branch. When there were 2 sites on a branch, I had frequent failure at the site that was closer to the central leader. So as noted above, the more distal growth dominates.
What has worked for me is to (1) graft the new variety onto a decent branch, then (2) remove all rootstock growth from both (a) the branch below the graft, and (b) the central leader below the grafted branch. So I remove all rootstock growth “below” the graft, whether on the branch or the central leader.
Just FYI, I have 1-2 additional branches to which I will graft H-118. And I plan to remove the central leader, then graft Nikita’s Gift there.
A few of these grafts were W&T. The vast majority were bark grafts. Easy.
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What exactly does this mean?
Should “no” be struck in this sentence?
Sorry, a typo. Thanks Dennis. Original is fixed.
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