Hello, I am located in Toledo, OH (zone 6B) and have recently ordered five (5) ‘3-year old’ seedless grapes from an online retailer. The varieties that I have purchased are:
My initial plan was to plant them along the outside perimeter of the wood/cattle panel fence to my garden that has a height of 42" - 48", in an espalier/cordon fashion.However, as I do more research, I am learning that there are umpteen million ways to train them, so my long-winded question is - what method would work best for my situation and the varieties I have? (Adding extensions to my fence posts to increase the height to around 72" is an option).
My second question comes in regards to spraying/disease management. From what I gather dormant/neem oil applications in the winter followed by several applications before/during/after the fruiting phase is what is encouraged. I am looking for confirmation on this approach as well as some organic options as I try to grow organically as possible.
I appreciate your time and hopefully I have provided enough detailed information to be able to provide answers.
Darn, I was really hoping somebody would’ve gotten back to you on this, though you’re further ahead than me - I just bought one Mars vine and am realizing trellising is going to take a bit more thought than what I’d done to that point. I hope some of the grape experts chime in!
BTW here’s what I got from the Ohio extension office:
“Vines are trained to a particular system by pruning and tying the canes to the support system. In some methods of training grapevines, the canes are tied to wires above the trunk and arms of the vines. Such training works well where grapevines are to be grown on a fence or in an upright position. In another method of training, the canes are tied to the wires and the fruit bearing shoots are allowed to droop or hang down. A third method is the cordon type training system. Here the fruiting canes are developed from a horizontal extension of the trunk called a cordon. If canes are pruned long, they can be tied to the lower wires. If pruned short, they hang free. One of the most common training systems is called the single curtain/cordon bilateral system (Figures 2 through 4).”
Didn’t help me a lot, but it made me focus on three methods instead of five hundred, so that’s a start!
I also found this blog from a guy in Oregon, I think? And he’s got some really helpful points. For example, I never once thought about coon-proofing my grapes, which I know I will 100% have to do…
Thanks for the information. I too have reached out to the OSU extension office but they have not yet gotten back to me, so I appreciate you forwarding the information you received.
As for the raccoons, that is something I definitely hadn’t thought about, either. And growing against a fence presents a whole host of problems for that…
One thing I’ll say quickly. I’m still learning what trellis I like best, but think about bird protection if you have bad bird pressure. I have some concords I made a “clothesline” trellis for, thinking I was maximizing canopy by having two horizontal parallel wires and a top wire giving more width. (Basically my posts look like a cross with wires on each arm and one on top.) The thought was a vertical trellis might shade the bottom wire. Long story short, we have songbirds like a plague. Some get under the net, and because of the open shape can fly around and wreak havoc. Turns out it doesn’t matter how many grapes your nifty design produces if the birds eat most of them.
Grapes are pretty resilient, you can try something and retrain them to something new. I got alot and trained all the fruiting canes to belly button height so they were easier to pick. But also extended my trellis to have an 8ft top wire to keep the growth from shading the fruit. You only have 5 vines, if you wnat to grow them on your fence, that works, just remember to prune. I perfer a trellis, with a stake at each vine. Table grapes are more forgiving than wine grapes. Space them maybe 6ft apart… grapes are so easy. I have no pests but some fungus if i dont keep everything tidy and lawn mowed. The grapes root easy if you decide you need more of a cultivar.
On the height of the trellis wire… consider what the most comfortable working height is for you. You are going to be pruning, thinning fruit, inspecting, harvesting, etc. Mid chest height works well… that is what I did for my muscadines last year.
Directional… a trellis wire that is run north/south… the sun will cross over it mid day. You can prune the east side once you have fruit sizing up… so that morning sun gets to the fruit (helps eliminate rots)… but leave the canopy needed for midday and evening shade.
Basically a 6-8 ft post connected by metal wires. It’s going to kind of look like the commercial grape farm setup in Eastern Washington on my end.
Difference is, i also plan on somehow making a rain hoop house cover like structure over my grapes as well since they sometimes don’t ripen until the big rain sessions come. If you don’t have cover on them here in western Washington, the rain will make a lot of varieties split.
Our favorite grape animals seem to be crows on my end.
I have over 10 varieties going and a mature one that i gotta find a way to get back to me. It’s so heavy in a 55 gallon pot that it’s a multiple person or forklift needed and I’m just me… i bought it as a struggling plant that was barely 8 inches tall but now it’s huge.
Going to do this with passion fruit and kiwi berry as well. I need something easy and practical and this seems to be it.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but Midgley’s Purple is a V. vinifera variety and unlikely to survive in your climate. Champagne is most likely Black Corinth, also a vinifera, and also unlikely to survive. On top of that, Black Corinth produces extremely tiny berries if the canes aren’t girdled. The rest should grow fine for you. I would recommend against training them flat against a solid fence though, as the boards will block air movement and sun exposure and promote disease.
Thanks for the information. Regarding the Midgelys, i purely went off of the hardiness zone indicated by several websites that sell them, which list it as hardy down to zone 6, but i digress, your real world experience is probably more accurate.
Secondly, thank you for the info on the champagne grape, i will probably container grow it simply to see how it fares and opt for another variety to be part of the permanent landscape. Do you have any standout seedless varieties for my zone that you would recommend?
Lastly, my garden fence is a cattle panel with a wood frame around it, circulation should not be an issue. Pic attached for reference.
The cold may do them in, but the real issues with vinifera is fungal disease and phylloxera, which attack the roots. People who foolishly try to grow vinifera commercially in the east, grow them grafted on phylloxera resistant rootstocks and spray with fungicides nearly on a weekly basis which results in expensive and inferior wine compared to dry climates. It’s a shame retailers sell inappropriate varieties without any disclosures.
As for the system I’m going to employ, I have decided to add a second set of 6’ posts abutting the existing fence posts on the outside of my fence and employ the VSP trellising system. The fence runs in the N/S direction, so I believe this should provide ample sunlight and ventilation.
Stupid question perhaps, but I have been looking for something specific in regards to an annual maintenance/fungicide regime. Are grapes generally treated systemically for prevention or sprayed only after signs of disease/fungus are present? I can’t seem to find anything real definitive as far as this goes…or perhaps I am just looking in the wrong places.
While I have no experience with the Suffolk Red vine I did have the Reliance vine. Reliance is an offspring of the Suffolk Red vine and has been described as a better vine in about all aspects. I can certainly attest to the raccoons loving the taste of the Reliance grapes!
Reliance is sweet, unique fruity flavor. and very “Reliable” hence its name. Ripens 3 to 4 weeks before Concord. University of Arkansas vine.
My vote would be Number 1 - treated systemically for prevention. Mildew on the leaves seems to be impossible to get rid of afterwards the vines get it. These bunch grape vines are a magnet for fungal diseases.
But please don’t take it just from me. I had to transition to muscadines after my bunch grape vines got Pierce’s disease in zone 7. Nothing could stop that on table grapes.
Purdue university used to have a great schedule for spraying. I don’t know if they still do but you might find it there.
FWIW this will be my first year with grapes. I am in 7a with a humid climate and grapes will likely be difficult due to fungus. I am planning the following:
I have chosen thomcord, compassion, and somerset seedless. Why? A mix of because people told me Concord was a relatively easier variety, because I only want seedless table grapes, because I want a mix of colored grapes, because I saw some tasting videos that made me go wow, be cause double a vineyards had them in stock, because they are similarly vigorous American hybrids, because they are moderately resistant to the pests I expect to have.
I plan on doing bilateral cordon spur pruning. Bilateral is supposedly better to balance the vine, and spur pruning is recommended for trailing habit/ American hybrid table grapes
I plan to use a high cordon trellis. I only will have three grapes so this should be simple to manage and understand. I also have the opportunity to turn it into an arch if I care more about asthetics than fruit quality. Time will tell.
full plan:
I) train 1 trunk vertically to about 5 ft. This is a decent height for ergonomics. I may go 4.5 I may go 6ft.
II) train 2 permanent cordons to the left and right.
III) space trunks 8ft apart or so, with cordons 4ft in length, with spurs about every 6 to 8 inches for about 8 spurs per cordon (less is better) and each spur should have 2-3 buds (3 is better as some of my grapes have variability)
I plan to soak the roots for 3 hours or so, then plant in a hole. For the first year, I will focus on training one trunk straight up a pole, and removing shoots. In the winter, if it reaches my desired height, I’ll cut it slightly above the wire. If it didn’t, I cut it to the bottom leaving a few buds.
The second year, I’ll try to train my horizontal cordon and remove shoots. In winter I’ll cut the cordons to have spurs 6 inches apart with 2-3 buds
The third year I’m hoping to get fruit.
Eventually I will replace the old spurs by making new ones every 2-3 years.
For the first year, I will just put in some temporary posts and I’ll build the real trellis later. Also, I plan to grow these east to west, even though north to south is more ideal.
Please let me know if this makes sense (or is a good plan)
Where in zone7a are you generally located? Honestly the zones does not tell us everything. Are you in the mountains, delta, desert, coast, northeast, southeast northwest, plains etc. I could not find it on the members map, not that I tried very hard.
If you are in my neighborhood I would not trust your plan. In the humid southeast table grapes generally do not do well.
I’m by Ross outside of Trenton. It’ll be difficult as far as I’m aware but there are some folks in my neighborhood who do grow them but they may be muscadines
