Sorry to change the subject op
Apologies to OP as well but this misspelling could lead to mispronunciation…
Appalachia pronounced App-uh-latch-uh and not App-uh-lay-shuh. At least by those born and raised in this area of the south 
What surprises me about that map is 2 of the rattlesnake are southeast. In response to others I did not even think of chicks or chiggers as those are non existent in CO. In CO unless you get a native grass it is not growing that high though.
“David The Good” says that grass ‘sucks up all the nutrients’… and also the water etc… he says to mulch instead… that fruit trees dont really grow that well competing with grass.
I think Stephan thinks the opposite… and traced his roots way under the aisles. He uses grass to give his roots nutrients and also talks about less irrigation with more grass…
For me…i do both. However i think my woodchips have made my aisles explode and become very dense and thick with grasses and clover.
Thoughts on either? both?
Once you throw Nitrogen fixing ground covers into the mix it’s even more complicated. At the risk of being pelted with slings and arrows I’m going to say for the backyard grower in a non-arid climate the differences between them aren’t that large. I like your approach though, thick mulch every year along with some kind of ground cover
I think it depends what it is. I hear Kentucky Bluegrass and Walnut trees go together like beans and carrots. Grass and Cacti don’t go together very well.
Ive heard both arguments. it think its all about plant vigor and root depth… a vigorous plant species with grass under it, likely wont affect it. a less vigorous one will be negatively affected. shallow rooting trees esp bush fruit , suffer from grass under them where deeper rooted trees arent affected. yeah, its complicated.
“Our goal, plain and simple, is fungal duff – that litter layer where mineralization and humification take place. Other plants will grow beneath our trees, certainly tufts of grass, but the density of these other species will be thin, essentially patches of green in between ramial wood chips, piles of shredded leaves, rotting hay, and compost smatterings.” Michael Phillips, The Holistic Orchard, Pg 9.
This bit from Michael Phillips on haphazard mulching really had an impression on me and it has influenced the way I handle the under canopy of my trees since I first read it. I mulch heavily at first to give the trees a good start and then I practice his haphazard mulching technique as time goes by, and I don’t worry too much about those weeds or patch of grass that might be growing under the tree. Especially if they are flowering plants. If you’re not spraying and fertilizing the grass, it will inevitably start to me intermixed with a whole lot of different herbaceous plants which in turn means a lot of different types of roots and not just a mass of grass roots.
This is awesome.
The only thing I will push back against slightly is the “haphazard” nature to try and “imitate” the forest floor. I like where his head is, it’s the right approach but it’s akin to a doctor saying “eat a balanced diet” instead of an actually specifically tailored diet based on blood work and genetics.
In the same way we can also follow some basic rules to make composting and mulching more effective rather than just doing everything randomly for the sake of randomness, while still in spirit maintaining the best processes going on in natural forest soils (like always putting mulch overtop of the higher nitrogen compost items, just because higher nitrogen stuff isn’t covered sometimes in the forest doesn’t mean covering it in woodchips wouldn’t sequester more nutrients in the soil)
Maybe he explains the nuances of the point in the book so this was pointless but this is a common pitfall I see some people fall into when they are looking to grow “as natural as possible”
In my experience so many of these permaculture people are trying to sell their books or trying to charge a bunch for classes. I think parkrose permaculture has touched on this topic where they try to get a permaculture certificate and in order to do so you need to take a class with someone who is so those people charge lots of money and it almost becomes a pyramid scheme. Many of these videos are so vague because the subject is very vague. They are trying to mention things that apply to every person.
@Phlogopite Agreed. It’s easy to get stuck in dogma and just want to do things because they seem “natural”. He cautioned against that as well and talked about always staying open to new discoveries, especially from citizen scientists observing these systems in their orchard every day. He had an immense knowledge of pests and diseases because growing organically takes a lot more work and observation. I can’t do everything the way he did but I do like the general approach he championed for.
The biggest challenge is that natural systems are far too complex and our knowledge is too limited to make many concrete assertions. Probably true of human health as well. We focus on specific symptoms but really lack the understanding of how those treatments affect the system as a whole over the long run. So I like to try things that have a smaller localized impact. Throwing some rotten hay on the south side of a tree because the grass is getting a little too thick seems easier than buying truckloads of woodchips and covering every square inch of the orchard.
@elivings1 That’s true. I respect people that can back up what they preach with results. Michael Phillips ran a successful organic orchard for decades until he passed away. Most permaculture gurus are selling ideas that have yet to be proven to be commercially viable. There are probably exceptions to that too though. I try to keep an open mind and pick and choose things I like to try in my own orchard. Nothing has been magic yet, but there are few things that have made it through the vetting process and I still use.
Even then I wonder about how successful he would be running a totally organic orchard somewhere wet or somewhere there is more pest pressure. It is pretty well known in Colorado that Palisade has more bests than the Denver area of CO for example. Another example is people have talked about how hard it is to grow things like peaches in rainy places. I think Fruitnut has mentioned he has yet to find many places like his location in TX for example.
Yes. And to your point (this is coming from someone who did research on massive magma bodies) the evidence we find in such complex systems necessarily cannot be as clear cut and as precise as particle physics.
“One can only expect as much precision as the science allows” - Aristotle
Great discussion, all! I love that you brought up Michael Phillips, @belowtheterrace . His book is cannon in the orchard circles here in the KC area. His approach seems very balanced, being mindful of both ecosystems and your personal orchard goals specific to your region.
Personally, I have two distinct ecosystems I’m trying to build on my urban plot. The first is native restoration and the second is fruit production. Both systems are grounded in being more climate change friendly, meaning I’d like to store more carbon on my plot, encourage native animal population and grow my own food.
My specific location was tallgrass prairie consisting of mostly bluestem, gramma and switch grass. This isn’t necessarily compatible with fruit production, so over the next few years I’m going to play around with mixing in natives in the orchard. In the mean time, I’ll likely keep a good mulch ring around the new fruit trees and bushes and let the mostly invasive grasses, clover, dandelions, etc grow tall to retain moisture, absorb heat and avoid carbon use to maintain.
Plus, the mowed paths look great! Hope you all are enjoying your orchards as much as me!
Keep in mind things tend to grow plentiful in Kansas and Missouri and land is cheap there compared to other states. My great grandma lived in Kansas and she could sustain herself as well. I did not know her but my mother stated she grew tons of annuals and her cousin lived near by with a cow farm that allowed her to get her meat easily. They average 40 inches of rain a year. You are not growing stone fruit without sprays there but you are not having to water either. The average price for real estate in Kansas is 185k to 220k depending on the internet results which is a pipe dream in many states.
I think to be successful you can’t beat your head against a wall. That’s true. That’s probably why he was successful. He had a lot of tenacity to go into organic orcharding when everyone said it’s impossible. But even then he still focused on things that could work in his area. Based on his books and interviews I don’t think he did it because it was easier. Quite the contrary. Spraying chemicals is much easier and more predictable. I think he did it because it seemed right to him. In the end that’s the only good reason for doing anything. We all have to decide what is the right way for us. For anyone interested in organic orcharding his work isn’t a bible, but a collection of hard earned lessons that he learned over the years and shared. You can pick and choose the ones to try for yourself. But no matter what you do, share the results. That’s what he was all about. Furthering the knowledge of the community and sharing ideas.
For myself i want the full gambit of the walkabouts. The birds, the bees…the predatory insects. Sometimes i get more enjoyment out of trees/canes that arent fruiting… as they invite habitats and life. I can also understand wanting the opposite…and just have workhorses and treat them as such.
I think it certainly depends on the person. My grandma and I have had a debate for years. From my side land is precious and should be utilized to its maximum for production. My grandma has always argued for flowers as they are more pretty and bring more interest to the home’s looks.
I heard somewhere that squirrels don’t like to cross tall grass, so I mostly leave it grow on my rural land between the apple trees. After ten years still no squirrel problems there. On the other hand my home orchard is full of squirrels who are well-fed on fruit. We don’t have poisonous snakes here in our part of Wisconsin, but plenty of ticks. Has anyone else found tall grass prevents squirrel thievery?
