OK, Sorry for the confusion. Assuming both trees are Hachiya (which seems most probable) and that Hachiya is PVA, then the difference between them is all about the seeds. The tree with the excellent non-astringent fruit has seeds; the tree with the sweet but astringent fruit does not.
My recommendation would be to find a tree to pollinate your Hachiya. You might plant a male-flowering tree nearby, such as Coffee Cake. You might ask someone to graft a scion from such a tree to your Hachiya.
I grew Hachiya for over ten years and they were always seeded since I have several males. They were also always astringent until they were bletted and soft.
I don’t have a clue what’s going on with the non-astringent “Hachiya” tree. Please post some pictures of the fruits next year. My guess is that it is a PVNA not Hachiya but it is hard to say.
Scott – which males pollinated your Hachiya?
Elsewhere it has been established that Pollination Variance has two independent components: (1) the seeds produce ethanol, and (2) the flesh retains ethanol. It seems likely that #2 is driven solely by the genes of the mother. But I have always wondered whether #1 is driven at least in part by the genes of the father [pollen donor]. Let’s assume that Hachiya has the genes to accumulate ethanol. Maybe the solution to the mystery is that whether the fruit is PCA, PVA, or PVNA depends on whether the seeds have acquired genes to produce ethanol – from the pollen. So maybe the pollinator matters.
This an off-the-wall idea, I know.
Meanwhile the non-astringent “Hachiya” tree has never been pollinated so as far as I can see we have no way to tell whether it might be PVNA. The best thing would be to pollinated it this year to see what happens.
Yes that sounds pretty off the wall to me 
Not impossible though. I had several males at that point, Chocolate and a couple different Maru.
I’m not sure what you are referring to about the OPs tree not being pollinated, he said it had seeds.
[quote=“scottfsmith, post:24, topic:51758”]
I’m not sure what you are referring to about the OPs tree not being pollinated, he said it had seeds
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The post says, << The tree I planted has fruit that is lighter in color, has no seeds . . . >>
The one he planted sounds like a Hachiya … it is astringent like it is supposed to be. So I don’t think there is any issue about what he planted. The mystery is the friends neighbors tree which is not astringent when firm … not sounding like Hachiya. When I wrote “Hachiya” I meant that one as it is the one that doesn’t seem correct.
So you’re saying he misidentified the neighbor’s tree. That could be. @BrownThumb – How certain are you that the neighbor’s tree is Hachiya?
There is some opinion (see reference) that Hachiya is PVA. I take it that you discount that view based on your own experience. I will admit that even if my speculation about pollen is correct, strong PVNAs such as Chocolate and Maru should probably be expected to produce pollen that cooperates.
Is there any chance that there are two varieties labeled Hachiya in circulation, one PVA, the other PCA?
I’m saying either he misidentified the tree or somehow due to the growing conditions the pollination caused it to lose its astringency.
There is only one Hachiya but there could be sports or mislabeled trees in circulation. The most common varieties are also some of the most likely to be mislabeled since they are often sold in big box stores which have wrong variety a large percentage of the time.
Yeah “mislabeled trees” is what I meant.
I’ve known folks who were involved in the wholesale nursery trade who swore that some big box stores sometimes bought over-run trees, but applied their own tags, regardless of true variety, because they figured their clientele would recognize the name ‘Bartlett’, for instance, but wouldn’t know the difference if it turned out to be a Keiffer - that is, if it lived long enough to fruit, or if the buyers were even still at that property when it finally came into bearing.
Don Yellman said he once bought a ‘Santa Rosa’ plum at a big box store that turned out to be a Fuyu persimmon. It happens, sometimes by accident, sometimes on purpose, or sometimes due to mischievous wags swapping tags at the point of sale.
That sounds a lot like my one experience with TyTy about 25 years ago. It appears they still operate the same now.
I’m still of the opinion that the nonastringent Hachiya is in reality one of the Goshos or related cultivars that have been sold here as Giant Fuyu.
The ones I’ve seen have:
Somewhat pointed fruit. Less so than Hachiya, but definitely not flattened like Fuyu
Consistent seed production, even in isolation
Darker orange color than Fuyu
The picture is from the “good” (non-astringent, seeded) tree. That tree is probably at least 30 years old so that may limit or define what it could be. The persimmon was just taken out of the freezer. It has lost some shape due to being “mush” before it was frozen.
It’s true, an acquaintance of mine ran a local box store garden center, I asked her for a ‘Comice’ pear, she added it in to a shipment. 3 years later I had ‘Keiffer’ pears… 
I’m to expert but the shape seems right for Hachiya.
@GrapeNut – I’ve seen pictures of the Gosho sold as Giant Fuyu. You’re right that it is pointier than Fuyu or other PCNAs. But it didn’t seem as pointy as this one. What do you think?
You’re right, they usually aren’t this pointy, but there is quite a bit of variation in fruit shape, as you can see in this image from Gurneys:
Even if the shape isn’t quite right, I still doubt that this is a non-astringent mutant of Hachiya. It’s possible the tree is a variety that has since died out elsewhere in the US.
The fact that it is pointed, seeded without external pollination, and nonastringent rules out the majority of kaki cultivars in the US.
To me it looks exactly like Chocolate. It is a bit more pointed than a Hachiya. Chocolate also pollinates itself based on my own experience, it’s male flowers can pollinate the female ones on the same tree.
If it is in fact Chocolate some of the fruits should be a bit brownish on the inside. If there is no brown on the inside on any fruits it is probably not chocolate. All of the other PVNA types I have seen have a more squat shape or are really small.
Simple solution. Get scionwood. Graft the tree. Grow it. Find out what it is!
Grafting is not a simple solution for me.
Also it is definitely not chocolate.
I enjoy grafting persimmons and have extra rootstocks. If you send me dormant cuttings about pencil width from your favorite tree, then in another year or two I could send you a grafted tree. That’s assuming I succeed, and I usually do if I have plenty of scions to work with. Not as fast as grafting on your own well established tree, but it would save you having to do the grafting yourself. It’s probably too late this year to collect dormant cuttings depending on where you are - all my persimmons are already breaking bud here in NC.
