Are there different varieties (or whatever they are called) of Hachiya persimmons? The tags that came on my tree only say Hachiya.
I have access to Hachiya persimmons from a friend’s neighbor’s huge old tree. The fruit is dark orange/red, has seeds, and are excellent eating when still firm long before they turn to slime. Not even a little astringent. The fruit is so good I wanted my own tree to guarantee a permanent supply.
The tree I planted has fruit that is lighter in color, has no seeds, and is terrible eating. It is sweet and flavorful but highly astringent. After eating one my mouth feels like I have been eating ashes. The fruit also gets large, shiny black areas. That does not seem to affect the fruit in any way except aesthetics and I have to cut out the black areas. The fruit also seems to soften too quickly.
Will the fruit from my tree get better with age? What are the black spots? What can I do? Fertilizer or supplement suggestions? Please help if you can. I am very disappointed in my tree. I wan to cut it down. Thank you.
Hachiya is an astringent Asian persimmon that doesn’t lose astringency until fully ripe, at which point it will be very soft and gooey. You wouldn’t expect it to have any seeds unless it were pollinated by another Asian persimmon tree with male flowers. The black areas on the skin are a common feature of many Asian persimmons. I’m not sure what causes them, but they are superficial and don’t affect fruit quality at all - as you noted.
I suspect your friend has a non-astringent variety (i.e., Fuyu, Jiro, etc…) that was mislabeled as Hachiya. If your friend could share scionwood with you, you could graft their persimmon to yours and not have to start over with a newly planted tree. If you don’t want to graft, then I would recommend buying a non-astringent persimmon cultivar like Fuyu or Jiro and avoid Hachiya.
I agree with what others wrote above. Just two notes:
First, many people would love to have Hachiya. But they would only eat it 110% ripe when it is no longer astringent. But then the flesh is gooey. If they don’t like gooey flesh then they’d dry the fruit, which firms the flesh and concentrates the sweetness and flavor. So maybe you can turn lemons into lemonade. Dried Hachiya are a delicacy in Japan.
Second, there are varieties of Jiro and Fuyu that may perform even better for you than the plain old ancestor varieties. For example, I have Ichi Ki Kei Jiro, which is a bud sport of Jiro, that works well for me here because it is a little later to break dormancy and so better avoids late frosts. You might find another non-astringent variety that is earlier-ripening, larger-fruited, more sweet, whatever. If you search this forum you’ll find good discussion of other Fuyu/Jiro-type varieties.
Thank you for the replies but I have to disagree. I have eaten Fuyu and know the difference in shape and texture. When ripe the Fuyu are firm like an apple and more round in shape compared to the acorn-shaped Hachiya. Ripe Fuyus eventually turn a little soft like a yellow delicious apple left on the counter too long. I prefer them crunchy compared to slightly dried out. I also find Fuyu flavor more intense, almost spice like, compared to the Hachiya from the older tree.
Both trees I am talking about are Hachiya. The mature tree may be more than 30 years old. For many years I have picked and eaten over 100 persimmons a year from the old tree and never got an astringent one. The fruit has large seeds. The owner does not like persimmons and does not know what to do with them. She likes me to pick them before they become soft and splat on the ground and her driveway and car.
Are there varients(?) of Hachiya? As I said before the tag on my tree only read Hachiya.
Unless they have another persimmon nearby that produces male flowers, the tree in question is not Hachiya, which only produces female flowers and therefore seedless fruit in isolation. Hana Gosho is non astringent, seedy/produces male flowers, and kinda shaped like a Hachiya. Maybe that’s the variety? I believe it’s fairly widely sold in California as ‘Giant Fuyu’ despite looking completely different.
Your astringent fruit are most likely Hachiya, as labeled.
Your neighbor’s non-astringent fruit is almost certainly not Hachiya, unless you have discovered a new mutant. If so, clone it. Or distribute scions. People would kill for a non-astringent Hachiya.
Is there any chance that your neighbor’s tree is a PVNA variety? You’d know because the seeds would turn the flesh brown. Seeded PVNA’s become non-astringent while still firm. Unseeded PVNAs stay astringent until very ripe. So it might be diagnostic if you could find a fruit without seeds and check it for astringency.
As said above, it’s likely your neighbors tree is not what you would buy in a grocery store as ‘Hachiya’. Do you have photos of the fruit from their tree?
Regardless of what it is or isn’t, until you find out what it IS, I’d recommend getting your own tree started if you really like it and want to preserve whatever variety it is, regardless of what that may be.
It’s possible the tree is a seedling too! It may just have the shape of a Hachiya fruit instead of a fuyu type fruit.
Flesh does not turn brown on the fruit from the old tree. Again it is probably over 30 years old. Would PVNA still be a possibility?
The fruit from the two trees is the same shape and texture. The variations are just a little in color, seed vs no seed and the dreaded astringency. Very different from Fuyu.
Changing tactics a little. Comments have me thinking about grafting. I can quickly get a cutting from the Fuyu tree I have gotten fruit from. Cuttings from the old Hachiya tree would not happen until this fall. When is a good time to graft and which graft should I use?
I know nothing about grafting but a neighbor is a master gardener so I would solicit his help for the surgery. I live in a retirement community and my yard is small. I only have room for the persimmon and a brown Turkey fig. I call it “the little tree that could”. I supply many neighbors in self defense. Otherwise I would be overwhelmed with figs.
I like to bark graft dormant persimmon cuttings (taken during the winter and kept in the fridge until spring) on my rootstock trees when the first leaves are visible in the spring. For me in zone 7B North Carolina, that’s usually the end of April since persimmons tend to leaf out later than many other trees. The timing is more important than the type of graft you use in my opinion, but I like bark grafts because it’s easy to get good cambium contact. It’s important to remove all growth on the rootstock below the graft every few days because this growth can compete with your scion. It’s also essential to brace/splint the graft with a bamboo stake or something comparable that prevents it from snapping off in the wind or if a bird lands on the scion before it is strong enough to take the weight. That can take a year or two. I also like to wrap the scion in parafilm or buddy tape to keep it from drying out too fast. The buds will push through this wrapping, but it’s important to conserve moisture until the graft takes.
If you’re willing to share scionwood next winter from your friend’s non-astringent so-called Hachiya, I would love to graft it and see how it does for me here in NC. I grow many persimmon cultivars and would be happy to share if you’d like to try other types. I don’t have anything that matches your friend’s tree’s description, however. Most of my trees are astringent or Fuyu/Jiro types.
One more thing you could try with your astringent Hachiya fruit this year - if you pick them when they are yellow/orange but still firm and then vacuum-seal them for a few days, they will probably come out without that astringency.
No. In PVNA fruit, the loss of astringency and the change of color go hand-in-hand.
Re grafting, I’m a relative novice but the rule I follow is dormant scions / growing rootstock. So here I do outdoors grafting in mid to late May using scions taken in Feb/March. But I have also brought potted rootstock trees indoors in Feb/March and grafted them after they leafed out. That works very well. This year I just started these grafts. I have 7 potted rootstock trees, and I set three grafts yesterday.
Re type of graft, for outdoor grafts on and established tree, I agree that bark grafts are easy and fairly dependable because it’s hard not to have decent contact between cambium layers. On a smaller branch, a cleft graft is fairly easy. Whip and tongue is strong and usually successful but the knife work is more challenging.
When I first read your post, I thought it sounded like the older tree is a PVNA type, particularly since it is probably less likely to have seeds unless it has male flowers as well which many PVNA persimmons do. Is the flesh brownish at all when you eat it, particularly around the seeds? If not, and it is bright orange/yellow inside, then it certainly sounds like that other tree is a non-astringent type. But if the flesh is brownish, then it certainly sounds like a PVNA type.
Where are you located? If you are in California, where many persimmons are grown and various PVNA types have been grown, you might see one that looks like the older tree by looking at the document below. With the redish color you mention, I’d point you to Zenji Maru as one to look at, but California Maru (PI83790) and Chocolate are other possibilities.
The document linked by @zendog lists Hachiya as PVA. That’s a lesser version of PVNA but it opens the door to the possibility that your seeded Hachiya loses its astringency due to the seeds.
My understanding is that the flesh in a PVA discolors only in the immediate vicinity of the seeds. And the loss of astringency proceeds outward from the vicinity of the seeds. A PVA become non-astringent much later than a PVNA.
<< Hachiya. This cultivar was the basis of the persimmon industry in California until recently, when nonastringent types like Fuyu and Jiro became more popular. Hachiya fruits frequently produce brown flecking around the seeds in some seasons and areas but not in others; as a result, it has been reclassified as pollination-variant. Hachiya is eaten fresh, frozen, or as a dried product, and is used in puddings and cookies. >>
I know this would be a long term project (7 years?). If if I could start a tree from seeds from the tree with the fruit I like and plant it in my yard near the tree with the fruit I do not like what would the resulting fruit be on each tree?
Years ago I started trees in pots from the tree I like. Less than one year old saplings (if they even qualify) are not hardy. It only took one day of neglect to kill them in Sacramento summer heat. Trying the project again has slim hope of success.
I have no ability to graft. That whole concept is beyond me.
“Seeds from the tree with the fruit I like” tells you which tree was the female. So then the question is: Which tree was the male? If “the tree with the fruit I do not like” produces males flowers, then it might well be the pollen source. Or it could be some other male-flowering tree nearby. Presumably, the cross would have some mix of traits from the two parents, but which mix you can never know until you try.
You may remember the story about Marilyn Monroe and Albert Einstein. Marilyn suggested that they should hook up because the child might be blessed with her looks and his brains. Of course, Einstein countered that it could have his looks and her brains.
If you don’t mind, please describe the fruit you don’t like. We might be able to tell you more.
I am the OP so descriptions of the two trees are posted above. Note the trees are probably 15 miles apart so they are not currently influencing each other.
Another option is to plant a Fuyu persimmon near the offending Hachiya. I have a very small yard and only room for one more tree and that will be a squeeze. Would I end up with Fuchiya fruit? Sorry, I am very frustrated the tree I waited 5 years to fruit is so disappointing.