My better option is manure. Here’s water in a hole after like 10-days. You can see how much it dropped. It’s @californicus just the soil.
wow, thats after 10 days!?! thats pretty bad and you are right, its just the soil then
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@disc4tw - you posted on another thread (I believe) accidentally. It doesn’t matter though, now:
https://growingfruit.org/t/re-what-nut-trees-in-northeast/41861/9
Oh no, it was definitely European night crawlers. Apparently just because they are not native but are good for soil, mine was an unpopular opinion even though to my knowledge they have been naturalized for many decades, if not hundreds of years with minimal negative impact on natural ecosystems to my knowledge.
Regardless of how the soil is improved in Dax’s current circumstances I’d say more organics is one answer.
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I would’ve never added worms. That thought has never crossed my mind. That’s something new to me. I’ve been told off and on for years and years that worms are good and some others say they are bad. I always thought “bs” to the bad. But, I’d never thought of adding them. People always (used to anyway) would ask if soil contains worms. That was the gist of all these conversations during my past.
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I’m not saying necessarily to add worms, but if you build it they will come. Also people buy worm poop to amend their gardens, so it clearly has value.
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thank you
Mix aged cow crap with mulch. Apply to row. Re-apply every year or every other year. The mulch will add nutrient, attract worms, and loosen the soil. The cow crap is the growth booster. That’s all you need. People here still fertilize fields with liquid pig crap. Another good mulch is the stall bedding that has crap in it. I’m sure you can find all those options for free. Worked pretty good for me.
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i agree with all that’s being recommended but if you want to grow right now, grow in mounds. i have the same clay with lots of fist sized rocks. my soil has killed any plant that needs drainage. i just lay down cardboard. plop your tree on that. drive a stake thru the cardboard to stabilize the tree until the roots establish. mound with good draining soil with extra perlite added. tamp well. mulch with 3-4in of coarse woodchips. water in. when i 1st did this it blew me away how quickly they rooted and grew. must be the exrta o2 to the roots. after about 3-4 yrs the mound soil gets used up and the tree becomes level with surrounding soil. give it a try. i have trees that we planted like this 5 yrs ago and are still growing well so its not just a short term benefit. i continue to mulch every spring so the moisture stays around the tree.
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The old deep tooth behind a bulldozer…cutting a couple feet into the ground…can’t think of the term for it tonight…
is the trick to getting grapes to do better in clay soils.
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I call that a ripper. Not sure if it’s the proper term but those things are monsters.
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@Barkslip , I always wondered, how is this tree doing? Is it on the same clay? Did it grow?
I also have very thick, clumpy, clay soil in many spots. Maybe not advice for your situation and it’s probably not as effective as mounding, but per topic, this is what I try to do:
- Plant shallow, with root flares at surface level. Sometimes I plant quite higher than what the nursery had planted to the point where I have to trim off some smaller roots that grew from the trunk above the root flare.
- Make exploratory pokes with the shovel around a general planting site and choose the best spot with the best soil. Even in a small area, not all potential planting spots are identical.
- Take notice when it rains hard, and walk around. Note the areas that get super soggy and don’t plant there. Plant where it drains the best. You can always plant a Sweetbay Magnolia in a soggy spot. It would at least help pollinators.
- Try different rootstocks / type of plants. Don’t plant the same exact rootstock+cultivar in the same location. Einstein purported said “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.”
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@sockworth That soil is so bad but I can keep trees alive. It takes literally about 8-years to establish any tree on that part of my soil. Then, they take off.
@steveb4 I’m going to start doing that. I’m definitely going to do it with cane plants.
@Robert I’m exactly going to do what you said: mulch & manure.
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There was a guy on social media that did a test with woodchips that i have not seen replicated. He sourced some woodchips that were done in the early spring… which had no leaves… and he sourced some that were done in the Fall. The chips without leaves barely broke down and the plants did not look as good as the chips with leaf matter. His theory was that just woodchips were about the same as sawdust… and that woodchips loaded with leaves were more compost than woodchips. Not scientific and not academic but interesting for sure.
True. Go to an undisturbed part of the forest where trees are big and happy. Pick up a nice handful of leaves near the ground. It will smell like a wet dog. Gazillions of microbes and things that can only be seen under a microscope are feasting on decaying leaves. Fine roots and mycorrhizal fungi also enjoy this feast.
I wouldnt say that Earthworms build the soil…they till and they aerate, they increase porosity and decrease compaction. Their casts have higher N, K, P and Ca than surrounding soils.
What eats decaying roots and turns them into plant food? Worms.
What eats nematodes, protozoans, rotifers, bacteria and fungi? Worms.
Someone earlier said if you build it they will come… I find that to be true. Just add organics to your plantings and there are things that will happen…things that work 24/7 to give life…
I think the opposite is also true. If you remove it…they will leave. Mans obsession with bare soil creates a soil devoid of life.
Soil wants to be alive. Soil is a sybiosis of things living and things dying. Leaves and grasses fall onto soil and things break them down. Roots live and die, things break down the dying roots and create food for the living roots.
There is alot going on under our feet… all they want is to be mostly left alone and fed what nature gives them.
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just don’t put too much manure on your pears or they’ll grow to the moon while you sleep.
I don’t do sh3t dude. I don’t spray round-up or fertilize. I simply plant.
I added manure to my persimmon trees last Fall. Not the pears though. hahahaha
If I had all the time in the world I’d put manure on all plantings but, there are over 350 plantings here. And eventually when the trees get big, I won’t have a manure thrower or a tractor for them.
I just leave them alone.
That’s all I got for ya, Kris.
Dax
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What are your varieties and what is the orientation/solar exposure?
I have grown Somerset, Reliance, Vanessa, Swenson Red, Swenson White, Concord, Bluebell, Trollhaugen, Prairie Star, Himrod, Roland, Petite Jewel on heavy clay soil that has water accumulation for a couple weeks in sping and fall with NO issues. They are planted in a north-south row with excellent sun from morning to night.
Scroll down or search in the page for “grapes” to see photos: Annual Fruit Reports – 2017 | Frozen North Fruit
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| Grape | Canadice | |
|---|---|---|
| Grape | Einset | |
| Grape | Faith DEAD 2018 | |
| Grape | Fredonia | |
| Grape | Gratitude DEAD 2018 | |
| Grape | Himrod | |
| Grape | Hope DEAD 2018 | |
| Grape | Joy DEAD 2018 | |
| Grape | Jupiter DEAD 2018 | |
| Grape | Marquis | |
| Grape | Mars | |
| Grape | Reliance | |
| Grape | Somerset | |
| Grape | Venus DEAD 2018 |
I planted a Fredonia 3-ish years ago. This probably year 4.
I’m going to look at your pics later. I’m stopping in for a brief minute.
It’s full sun. That’s Facing full west and sees every bit of sunlight from morning to dawn. One of those I proclaimed dead (University of ARK. varieties won’t die). It comes back from the root every year or overwinters in milder winters. The last two years I’ve only seen -9 F. It hasn’t had dieback. Not sure which one right off hand. Sorry, I’m doing a wood working project. I’ll check to see though which one is still a “perennial”.
I’ll be interested to see what you got going.!
Dax
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Hi Barkslip,
Seeing that picture of standing water tells a lot. Grapes don’t like wet feet. It would take years to add enough organics to solve this issue. A couple of thoughts:
- It’s possible that you have a hard pan which often forms in heavy clay soils. If you were to dig down 5-6’ you might discover if that’s the case. If yo hit concrete like resistance when digging, that’s usually a sign of hard pan. Sometimes you can go deep enough to punch thru it and allow soils above to drain. More often though it’s too thick for that solution.
- If you cannot find a hard pan and do not want to relocate your vines, you might consider laying. Parallel perf pipe in a trench where the perf pipe can drain to a lower elevation. This might require adding stub trenches over to the location of your vines filling these trenches with highly organic material would allow water to perk out to the drain pipe.
- The only other option I can imagine would be to construct a highly organic mound a couple feet high and replant your grapes.
Good luck, I will be interested to hear what you discover, sorry I did not understand your issue earlier.
Dennis
Kent, wa
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That’s a better expression of my point 4 days back. Rip up the clay hardpan and it solves a lot of issues.