I have a long arbor with a dozen or so grapes planted 2014.
They’re all stunted, and, have grown a maximum of 6-8 feet in all these years. Is there a vine that will grow there or maybe a cane crop?
This is 2015, a year after initial planting.
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I have a buddy that transformed his heavy clay into better soil (humus). He tilled in and amended with leaves and compost and encouraged worms…they tilled everything in and he now grows what he wants.
My neighbor did the opposite and added gypsum. It worked for a couple of years and he had bumper crops and now his soil looks fallow.
In your case i would top amend with organic matter and the worms and biome will pull it down and make a nice layer of topsoil with less compaction.
I am doing the same thing with a small plot now. I started with clay and rocks and very little life… the more leaves and compost i add the richer and looser the soil is becoming. Kind of like a forest floor kinda thing.
Im sure there are better ideas but it seems to be working for me… my soil is alive…
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Agree, that organics can help a lot. Also a soil test to check pH may help identify the real problem. I read:”soil pH in the range 5.5 to 6.5 is considered optimum for grapes and generally has better nutrient balance for plant growth than soils that are more acidic or alkaline. Vines will grow from pH 4.0 to 8.5, but a pH below 5.5 and above 8 will depress yields and create vine problems.”
I notice it has been covered with wood chips which will take nitrogen from the plants as they decompose, so I would broadcast the bed with clover seed. Clover roots run deep and can help to breakup the clay plus add nitrogen back to help break down the wood chips adding soil fertility. I use both Canadian and European crawlers here to help breakup my hard pan. They do a great job of penetrating and aerating the soil. Those are the things I would consider after adding additional compost on top of the wood chips. If you Google cation exchange capacity, you will be able to review numerous research articles that explain how to deal with heavy clay layers. These articles on how humus can improve soil fertility may give you some other ideas. Not many thing that more humus does not help!
Dennis
Kent, wa
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Fed mine aged cow crap and saw a dramatic difference. I have thick clay and rock myself.
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ok, thank you all.
Watch out for those earthworms… I was reprimanded on Facebook for suggesting that non-native night crawlers are a good addition to our environment because they eliminate leaf litter in the understory. We wouldn’t want them to convert organics to better quality soil now, would we? (sorry for the quick thread hijack Dax).
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I’ll tell ya what I’ve done.
I tilled it in 2014 when I planted. That probably spun all the soil layers together and possibly made it worse. Then I plant and mulch. I did not add organics.
I’ll bring over manure from my neighbors and put it on in the Fall. Had I been thinking 5-6 years ago, I would be in pretty decent shape, now. I’ll just work on it.
I quit mulching after it goes away, sort of after year 2. Plants at my home are mulched at planting time and watered for at least two years and then I step away.
Thank you guys,
Dax
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I disagree. Tilling in organics is not a good idea. All that does is create a in ground tub for all the water in your yard to drain into. It will be the “soft hole” in your garden. Best solution for hard clay is raised beds. Even 6 inches off the ground does amazing.
Over time, the worms will mix it all in and the ground below will be softer. Not as dramatic as human tilling. It’ll be more like a gradient.
Another option is to wood chip the heck out of it. And let nature break it down into the ground below. But I still prefer starting any new trees a little higher than the original soil line.
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I agree raised beds are the best antidote for poorly drained clay based soils.
Dennis, I respectfully disagree with the advice. Well…sort of. I agree clover is an excellent legume for fixing N, and it helps loosen the soil, and the flowers are nice 
, the drawback is that it is attractive to plant bugs, especially stink bugs, which feed on fruit. This isn’t nearly as much of a concern in the West where pest pressures are lower. But it’s a pretty big deal in the Midwest and East where pest pressures are much higher.
Another drawback would be that clover attracts bees, which isn’t a problem for folks who don’t spray fruit to protect against insect pests, but it is an issue for those who have to spray. Again, not near as much spraying has to be done in the West, so this wouldn’t be nearly the concern out there.
Re: Wood chips
I’m actually a pretty big fan of wood chips. Wood chips do remove nitrogen at first, from the soil if incorporated, but OK to top dress since that’s out of the root zone. Actually it’s my opinion that top dressed wood chips add nitrogen below.
Wood chips start to decompose fairly quickly. After initial decomposition, they actually start adding N. As the rain washes through the wood chips, it’s the equivalent of watering the plants with compost tea, with each rain.
Ryan, it probably depends on the species of non-native. Some, like the Asian jumping earthworms are very destructive. Some states are working hard to slow their spread.
The problem with some earthworm species is that they eat the leaf litter faster and release the nutrients faster than the forest plants and trees can absorb it. With the protective leaf litter gone so quickly, it leaves the soil vulnerable to erosion and nitrogen leaching.
Although earth worms are an indicator of biolife in the soil, not all earthworms are actually good for the soil.
Leaf litter will slowly decompose without earthworms. So earthworms aren’t at all required to build soil. In fact that’s how the rich humus was formed on many forest floors over thousands of years. Slowly decomposing leaf litter building layer upon layer of rich humus soil.
It may be counter intuitive, but some species of earthworms actually destroy soil and even ecosystems.
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I am not a soil expert, but there are many areas around CA that have heavy clay where grapes thrive. Is there something else going on? Wonder if a soil test will give you more info.
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My better option is manure. Here’s water in a hole after like 10-days. You can see how much it dropped. It’s @californicus just the soil.
wow, thats after 10 days!?! thats pretty bad and you are right, its just the soil then
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@disc4tw - you posted on another thread (I believe) accidentally. It doesn’t matter though, now:
https://growingfruit.org/t/re-what-nut-trees-in-northeast/41861/9
Oh no, it was definitely European night crawlers. Apparently just because they are not native but are good for soil, mine was an unpopular opinion even though to my knowledge they have been naturalized for many decades, if not hundreds of years with minimal negative impact on natural ecosystems to my knowledge.
Regardless of how the soil is improved in Dax’s current circumstances I’d say more organics is one answer.
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I would’ve never added worms. That thought has never crossed my mind. That’s something new to me. I’ve been told off and on for years and years that worms are good and some others say they are bad. I always thought “bs” to the bad. But, I’d never thought of adding them. People always (used to anyway) would ask if soil contains worms. That was the gist of all these conversations during my past.
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I’m not saying necessarily to add worms, but if you build it they will come. Also people buy worm poop to amend their gardens, so it clearly has value.
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thank you
Mix aged cow crap with mulch. Apply to row. Re-apply every year or every other year. The mulch will add nutrient, attract worms, and loosen the soil. The cow crap is the growth booster. That’s all you need. People here still fertilize fields with liquid pig crap. Another good mulch is the stall bedding that has crap in it. I’m sure you can find all those options for free. Worked pretty good for me.
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i agree with all that’s being recommended but if you want to grow right now, grow in mounds. i have the same clay with lots of fist sized rocks. my soil has killed any plant that needs drainage. i just lay down cardboard. plop your tree on that. drive a stake thru the cardboard to stabilize the tree until the roots establish. mound with good draining soil with extra perlite added. tamp well. mulch with 3-4in of coarse woodchips. water in. when i 1st did this it blew me away how quickly they rooted and grew. must be the exrta o2 to the roots. after about 3-4 yrs the mound soil gets used up and the tree becomes level with surrounding soil. give it a try. i have trees that we planted like this 5 yrs ago and are still growing well so its not just a short term benefit. i continue to mulch every spring so the moisture stays around the tree.
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