The old deep tooth behind a bulldozer…cutting a couple feet into the ground…can’t think of the term for it tonight…
is the trick to getting grapes to do better in clay soils.
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I call that a ripper. Not sure if it’s the proper term but those things are monsters.
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@Barkslip , I always wondered, how is this tree doing? Is it on the same clay? Did it grow?
I also have very thick, clumpy, clay soil in many spots. Maybe not advice for your situation and it’s probably not as effective as mounding, but per topic, this is what I try to do:
- Plant shallow, with root flares at surface level. Sometimes I plant quite higher than what the nursery had planted to the point where I have to trim off some smaller roots that grew from the trunk above the root flare.
- Make exploratory pokes with the shovel around a general planting site and choose the best spot with the best soil. Even in a small area, not all potential planting spots are identical.
- Take notice when it rains hard, and walk around. Note the areas that get super soggy and don’t plant there. Plant where it drains the best. You can always plant a Sweetbay Magnolia in a soggy spot. It would at least help pollinators.
- Try different rootstocks / type of plants. Don’t plant the same exact rootstock+cultivar in the same location. Einstein purported said “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.”
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@sockworth That soil is so bad but I can keep trees alive. It takes literally about 8-years to establish any tree on that part of my soil. Then, they take off.
@steveb4 I’m going to start doing that. I’m definitely going to do it with cane plants.
@Robert I’m exactly going to do what you said: mulch & manure.
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There was a guy on social media that did a test with woodchips that i have not seen replicated. He sourced some woodchips that were done in the early spring… which had no leaves… and he sourced some that were done in the Fall. The chips without leaves barely broke down and the plants did not look as good as the chips with leaf matter. His theory was that just woodchips were about the same as sawdust… and that woodchips loaded with leaves were more compost than woodchips. Not scientific and not academic but interesting for sure.
True. Go to an undisturbed part of the forest where trees are big and happy. Pick up a nice handful of leaves near the ground. It will smell like a wet dog. Gazillions of microbes and things that can only be seen under a microscope are feasting on decaying leaves. Fine roots and mycorrhizal fungi also enjoy this feast.
I wouldnt say that Earthworms build the soil…they till and they aerate, they increase porosity and decrease compaction. Their casts have higher N, K, P and Ca than surrounding soils.
What eats decaying roots and turns them into plant food? Worms.
What eats nematodes, protozoans, rotifers, bacteria and fungi? Worms.
Someone earlier said if you build it they will come… I find that to be true. Just add organics to your plantings and there are things that will happen…things that work 24/7 to give life…
I think the opposite is also true. If you remove it…they will leave. Mans obsession with bare soil creates a soil devoid of life.
Soil wants to be alive. Soil is a sybiosis of things living and things dying. Leaves and grasses fall onto soil and things break them down. Roots live and die, things break down the dying roots and create food for the living roots.
There is alot going on under our feet… all they want is to be mostly left alone and fed what nature gives them.
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just don’t put too much manure on your pears or they’ll grow to the moon while you sleep.
I don’t do sh3t dude. I don’t spray round-up or fertilize. I simply plant.
I added manure to my persimmon trees last Fall. Not the pears though. hahahaha
If I had all the time in the world I’d put manure on all plantings but, there are over 350 plantings here. And eventually when the trees get big, I won’t have a manure thrower or a tractor for them.
I just leave them alone.
That’s all I got for ya, Kris.
Dax
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What are your varieties and what is the orientation/solar exposure?
I have grown Somerset, Reliance, Vanessa, Swenson Red, Swenson White, Concord, Bluebell, Trollhaugen, Prairie Star, Himrod, Roland, Petite Jewel on heavy clay soil that has water accumulation for a couple weeks in sping and fall with NO issues. They are planted in a north-south row with excellent sun from morning to night.
Scroll down or search in the page for “grapes” to see photos: Annual Fruit Reports – 2017 | Frozen North Fruit
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| Grape | Canadice | |
|---|---|---|
| Grape | Einset | |
| Grape | Faith DEAD 2018 | |
| Grape | Fredonia | |
| Grape | Gratitude DEAD 2018 | |
| Grape | Himrod | |
| Grape | Hope DEAD 2018 | |
| Grape | Joy DEAD 2018 | |
| Grape | Jupiter DEAD 2018 | |
| Grape | Marquis | |
| Grape | Mars | |
| Grape | Reliance | |
| Grape | Somerset | |
| Grape | Venus DEAD 2018 |
I planted a Fredonia 3-ish years ago. This probably year 4.
I’m going to look at your pics later. I’m stopping in for a brief minute.
It’s full sun. That’s Facing full west and sees every bit of sunlight from morning to dawn. One of those I proclaimed dead (University of ARK. varieties won’t die). It comes back from the root every year or overwinters in milder winters. The last two years I’ve only seen -9 F. It hasn’t had dieback. Not sure which one right off hand. Sorry, I’m doing a wood working project. I’ll check to see though which one is still a “perennial”.
I’ll be interested to see what you got going.!
Dax
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Hi Barkslip,
Seeing that picture of standing water tells a lot. Grapes don’t like wet feet. It would take years to add enough organics to solve this issue. A couple of thoughts:
- It’s possible that you have a hard pan which often forms in heavy clay soils. If you were to dig down 5-6’ you might discover if that’s the case. If yo hit concrete like resistance when digging, that’s usually a sign of hard pan. Sometimes you can go deep enough to punch thru it and allow soils above to drain. More often though it’s too thick for that solution.
- If you cannot find a hard pan and do not want to relocate your vines, you might consider laying. Parallel perf pipe in a trench where the perf pipe can drain to a lower elevation. This might require adding stub trenches over to the location of your vines filling these trenches with highly organic material would allow water to perk out to the drain pipe.
- The only other option I can imagine would be to construct a highly organic mound a couple feet high and replant your grapes.
Good luck, I will be interested to hear what you discover, sorry I did not understand your issue earlier.
Dennis
Kent, wa
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That’s a better expression of my point 4 days back. Rip up the clay hardpan and it solves a lot of issues.
(edit) Barkslip not easy for me to explain I hurt my back, and typing on stomach
You said so yourself Barkslip
you do not want to add to much Nitrogen to pears for to much vegetative growth.
For Grapes you want calcium Add Gypsum , and also to break up the soil
If you want to have excessive growth that you’d have to prune adding the maneur is not ideal as it will add salts into the soil (although a low PH with salts in soil will not leach them with gypsum)
This is advice for your soil for grapes in the midwest, but not necessary everyone’ s if you where out west (Colorado) with high PH low acid the gypsum could leach salts (and other stuff) , and kill the vines off …
For Grapes your not looking for rich soil
A common quality for grapes is a soil rich in Calcium (the vines can absorb)
(in Champagne they add a lot of Iron to soil)
just also have you thought of planting daikon radish (do not buy in bulk by that name , and pay high)
if you’d like to have some root crops ask just had soil as well that was clay , and native plants broke it up.
I also have tap root seeds like curly DOCK (bur Dock could work, but I have no seeds for you)
After the Daikon root grows your suppose to let the root rot in the ground
search Gypsum viticulture
look into bulk seed of daikon radish (but by latin name – I have but do not let a store involved in hunting rip you off on seed prices )
I think Mirliton (cayote squash)
may be good to let grow the root can get very large and you could let it rot in place for planting next year (but mirliton squash is only a assumption , I know for a fact Daikon radish is used for breaking up soils, and have experience with native plants doing that as well with my soil.)
(I could go on about how the ions can be positive charged from clay after being freed with a negative charge but I know it for myself no need to try to explain it as I been through it with my soil)
I just was also have to say
I think Vitis vulpina might be good in water logged soil , but I am not the best at identifying grapes
(I know we have summer grape vitis aestivalis (vitis cat bird grape ) and vitis riparia river grape
more sandy soil would be sand grape, but doesn’t apply (oh concord (or vitis labrusca )
but pretty sure it’s either V, vulpina or V aestivalis that does in heavy clay
maybe even V riparia (river bank)
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When I was in high school, I lived near Memphis, Tn on a cotton farm with lots of red clay soils. Many days I spent running the subsoiled on our hillside pastures to do just that. Then my Dad would lime and plant lots of clover. It did miracles making the best pasture around. The rains would soak in and not cause runoff gullies. Must solve drainage to grow grapes. Grapes can grow on the poorest and most infertile soils if they got drainage!
Dennis
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I should add that Clay soils have the potential for superior fertility. If you read the research articles on CEC, you find that clay particles are so much smaller than other types of soil, that they are very capable of developing super high CEC values and even better when you incorporate humus from composting. So manures will definitely help, and my earthworm suggestion even more important a contribution since the night crawlers burrow deeply into the soil and bring in this case clay particles to mix with the otherwise stubborn clays. Likewise crimson clover sends its root down several feet helping to breakup shallow hard pans. But all of this is useless until you get drainage to work. So if there is a nearby farmer with a subsoiler and a powerful tractor, that’s the best first attempt to break up the hardpan and clay layers. Also the quickest and easiest task to accomplish
Dennis
Kent, wa
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Hardpan is a likely issue. If so I would also advise some sort of breaking thru it. I had similar problems with drainage in my compacted soils. Digging almost 6 feet down at times and removing rock and finding sand underneath now allows for great drainage. I do it now before any large plants in my small yard.
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As a rule of thumb, if soil has no worms it is poor or worn out soil.
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Wow,
Now that’s a good example! I have it here too. I live on a glacial moraine where a little bit of soil and lots of rock and sand were put down back during the ice age, then Mt Rainer added its layers of debris. I have to use a pick to get thru mine, but it’s shallow and full of stones and boulders. When I built my home I had a contractor haul in about 2 feet of valley loam for my lawn and garden. Still in places rain water goes right thru the loam and then goes horizontal to the low side of the property once it’s hits the hardpan.
Thanks for the pic!
Dennis
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Oh I see. In my case my neighborhood slopes down and I am on the upper end. I knew that water would find its way down and off my property. If you land is flat it would be harder to tell how far that hardpan goes down. I would still take a stab at it and see what’s down there. Surrounding areas might also give you a clue. Outgrops of stone protruding from soil being one. Also standing water in unimproved land near yours. Good luck,
So what’s your secret ? 
Lovely grapes. I can’t even begin a “pruning system” cause 75-90% of my varieties got to the arbor pole or they didn’t. You have a beautiful website. (I see how water pools at your gorgeous property.)
I could understand how a pruning system (potential less vigor/definitely less-vigor) but I’m not even able to begin.
Lovely place. You’re ten years ahead of me on all fruits.
Dax
Eric, awesome information, much thanks.
Dax
Dax, I agree with many on here about using a ripper/root plow that is hooked up on a 3-point.You don’t necessarily need a dozer though. I use these things all the time on medium size tractors. If it’s just clay and not a bunch of big tree roots, you will be fine. Just bury it a little deeper every pass. Do this several times paralleling each run. It would be nice if you broke through the hard pan after you sink a ripper in to its fullest depth. Doing this and adding organics will definitely be a work in progress.
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