Help Plan my Orchard

I’m a father of 3 young children without the time I desire in making a super well researched and thought out orchard plan and I figured you lovely folks might enjoy this sort of thing and not have to do hours of research to make a rough plan. I am a teacher trying to give myself and the family a decent “character building” and income producing side hustle of farming.

Currently here in zone 6b Kentucky south of Louisville I have 16 - 4ft wide, 150-175ish ft long rows spaced 20ft apart that have been tilled, fertilized according to a soil test, and cover cropped for the winter, but I don’t know exactly what I am going to plant in them in the spring. I don’t have much cash flow to get this thing going. I spent most of my start up capital on this spring putting in a separate area of 400ft of raspberries, 50 blueberry bushes (being grown in 15 gallon pots, I have killed many a blueberry bush in the past in this stubborn clay soil and am fine needing to replant every 5-10 years) and 250ft of strawberries in to sell at the farmers market starting next year. Also looking at applying for a USDA high tunnel grant to run some figs, tomatoes, or salad greens in.

Anyway the main point of this post are these 16 rows, I was thinking fruit trees starting most from seed and grafting known varieties after a year or two of growth. I love the idea of seed grown rootstock vs transplanted, due to a little influence of Stefan Sobkowiak’s work though I am not totally bought into he whole NAP trio thing so I am not trying that. I was going to lay down 4 ft wide landscape fabric on the rows, burn a hole at the appropriate spacing, probably a little denser than normal and thin later.

My thoughts on rows are
4-6 rows of apples
4-6 peach
2 euro pears
2 pawpaw ( for fun and perhaps propagating and getting a nursery license to sell some as well. Peaceful Heritage and Englands near me seem to do quiet well and the interest only seems to be growing in pawpaws)
2 asian pear

Also in the midst of these rows looking to do the permaculture thing as much as possible by growing more sun loving bush type fruits or spacing loving veggies while the trees are young and as the trees get bigger transition to more shade tolerant bushes. I’d like to do farmers market, but with the idea of transitioning to U-pick as the trees begin producing. The reason for having such a variety to keep U-pick customers entertained as Stefan says. Will be running sheep and broilers behind the sheep in the rows with poly wire electric to keep the plants safe and the grass mowed. June and July I am off for the summer and so can full time farm, harvest and sell so those varieties are more appealing, Though some August-October harvest wouldn’t be to overwhelming especially once the U-pick is rolling. Last caveat so far I am not certified organic, but am only using OMRI sprays and things and so would love things to be as organic as possible and would want disease resistant “easy” growing trees.

Anyway what do you think of my rough plan for the orchard, would you have more or less rows of the trees I have suggested (peaches look great on paper, but I fear not being able to organically grow anything decent)? What do you think of starting from seeds to start cheap, gain some capital back from my berries over the next couple years and graft later? Is pruning standard sized seedlings to a manageable size going to be unbearable or should I find the cash and just go with good semi dwarfing rootstock? If you are really feeling froggy what varieties would you suggest for the apples, pears, peaches, and asian pears and in row spacings?

This whole thing could not make a dollar and my finances would be fine, but if I could get it to pay for itself and eventually bring some good income in that would be amazing so profit is definitely my goal.

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Welcome aboard. Best way to get fruit trees on the cheap is to learn grafting.

For Apple rootstock I can think of no better a source then a Kentucky USDA trail of many types.
kentucky rootstock.pdf (240.9 KB)

That posted you should consider what you want out of your rootstock. There are types for many things. Same applies to Scion choices. You can go old heritage. Modern Disease Resistant. Grocery store types. Crabs. Juicers. Long storing. Or maybe a mix?

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You might make room in the orchard for more no spray or low spray fruit.

Persimmons, Mulberries, Jujube, CHE, goumi, some Pears work well no spray (some dont).

I have a difficult time getting apple trees to survive fireblight (here in southern TN) once they start blooming… resistent varieties are a must. Pest problems abound… unlikely to get nice clean fruit without a good spray program.

Same for peaches… oriental fruit moth … wormy peaches, brown rot… you have to combat those.

I grew peaches for several years no spray and got lots of good fruit early on… but then OFM showed up… then a few years later brown rot… It was sad… throwing away hundreds of peaches.

I replaced my peaches with no spray fruit.

Good Luck !

TNHunter

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I have perused that one once before and was thinking one of the geneva 890 or 969 if I went the rootstock route over seedling rootstock. Would you say is the disease resistance in the rootstock as important as the resistance in the grafted variety therefore necessitating going with a rootstock if I want the healthiest trees possible?

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Knowing what i know now and if I were to start over. I would plan my orchard rows based on root stocks. The first season I would install irrigation, plant just the root stocks and install animal protection (tree guards and fencing) into the planned rows. This would give you a year to plan the varieties to (top work) graft early the following spring and develop a spray program based on the varieties selected. The second season the goal would be growing and establishing healthy grafts.

Prayers and support to all the families affected by hurricane helene.

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This is what I didn’t want to hear but probably needed to. Thank you sir. That thread you posted also looks like the plethora of information all in one place that I needed.

My biggest fear with going the more no/low spray route is marketability. I paid for a consult with Blake Cothron last year when I was first deciding what to plant this spring and he suggested Berries, pawpaws, asian pears, euro pears, and chestnuts as the easiest to grow and most profitable things, but marketability is again my fear. So perhaps a trial of 1 rows of peaches 1-2 rows of apples and focusing the rest easy to market berries and customer education on the not so well known stuff until I get people hooked. Stefan Sobkowiak said he would give away for free at his U-pick things that he knew people were afraid of for a year or so until people developed the taste for it and would pay for it in subsequent years. So that might be my ticket.

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Well it is supposed to be. Sometimes it does not happen for whatever reason. I chose G.214 to plant my “mother trees” on. Resistant rootstock to keep a supply of scion wood.

As it turned out; P.2 and M111 had much better survival. I will say what survived is growing better now. G.214 is growing just as well as M111 now. Where P.2 has definitely slowed down. But I read Polish rootstocks hit dormancy earlier too.

The thing is; I was not expecting the worst fireblight years in a long time either.

So I just take my loses and will replant again. But I’m trying to create a heritage tree nursery. Not grow fruit primarily.

You are lucky. There are a ton of Organic/No Spray cultivars now, with many more coming. Saw a very special, very limited release of “Initial” Apple Variety. A new French “No-spray” apple. 5 lucky and observant folks will get to try a new French Cooker/Cider Sour apple and most of us won’t…lol

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That is a good point. Not making a decision yet; I opted for the first 3-5 years in pots/bags. My thought was to plot out flowering times and plant in like groups. But someone here pointed out grafting crabs on trees that matched their pollination.

Now my problem becomes having so many rootstocks for breeding use. Some clonal. Some seedling fruit varieties in their own right. Plus oddities like Micromalus and Brevipes. And a “On Own Roots” play area.

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My hard experience: Start with reliable producers for your area. Even if they aren’t too exciting.

Check in with your local extension agent. Things like locally suitable rootstock for a U-Pick operation are within their bailiwick.

Organic is a big commitment. More difficult for trees than berries.

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Around here it is a black hole. Nurseries sell mostly seedling or sometimes M111 based trees here. But generic Malus Pumilla types dominate. Which tracks back to the wholesalers that supply them.

I talk to our agents periodically. There just is no apple culture to lean on. Just what might work. UofF and their programs in apples is a better match for us. And I talk with them too.

The coastal South really has no rootstock tailored for it. I hope to change that.

Given your low budget approach and the desire to have longterm success, I would strongly recommend against the weed block fabric but encourage a thick layer of hardwood woodchips over the entire garden area. This will limit your irrigation costs by making the most out of your water supply and provide both nutrients that will over time enrich the soil fertility. I would discourage tillage and let the woodchips do the majority of weed control. Once you get thru the first several years of pulling your weeds and composting them before they go to seed the labor is lessened and you compost can be fed back as useful nutrients. Taking care of your soil and building up a strong CEC ratio with natures composters will pay dividends.
You can read some of the following to gain more insight into taking care of your most precious resource!
CEC benefits

https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/ay/ay-238.html

Benefits of soil organisms: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/soil-organism

Do earthworms create humus?

Earthworms can eat their weight in organic matter and soil each day to create nutrient rich castings. Earthworms help create humus—a dark brown-black type of soil which holds important nutrients in place for plant growth and use.

Humus: What is it and How is it Formed? | EcoFarming Daily

https://www.ecofarmingdaily.com › build-soil › humus-…

https://www.ecofarmingdaily.com › build-soil › humus-…

Humus formation is carried out in two steps. First, the organic substances and minerals in the soil disintegrate. Next, totally new combinations of these broken …

How long does it take to make humus soil?

Maintain your compost pile for at least 6 to 12 months.

The longer you keep your compost pile healthy, the more humus you’ll end up with. When you notice most of the pile has turned into compost, you can use that as fertilizer or keep tending to it for 6 to 12 months (or longer) until it turns into humus.

Both humus and compost will help to feed the microbiome of your soil, increasing its fertility. Both help increase your soil’s structure, prevent nutrient leaching, and provide better aeration and water retention. But humus is significantly better for water retention purposes.

How Does Humus Help Plants Live?

https://homeguides.sfgate.com/humus-plants-live-39631.html

Best Wishes for success!
Dennis
Kent, Wa

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I like the miracle farm approach and started out with trioles but have since deviated. I was captivated by his first video. I do have alternating types of trees and I think there are pros and cons to that style.

I’m going from mowing between trees to a more natural approach but my orchard was not well thought out like your plan. I still think there is some value and beauty to contrasting trees and a somewhat random approach, especially for someone not into u-pick.

This is the answer. I have 2 young kids, 4 and 7, and a full time job and I barely have enough time to water, mulch, prune, and fertilize everything that needs it. I purposely don’t have any trees I need to spray regularly because I highly doubt I could keep up with it.

That certainly is a valid fear, but I would think offering tastings like they do at costco could draw in some customers. the vendors who give out freebies at my local farmers market always tend to bring in a crowd.

I’m far from an expert but if it were me I would go with things that need minimal if any spraying, at least to start, like Pawpaws, Persimmons, mulberries, jujubes, haskaps, Figs, Bush Cherries, cornus mas, currants, and heartnuts. Goumi could be interplanted to help with nitrogen needs.

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Goumi and autumn olives are cedar apple rust magnets here. “No-Spray” seems to be your best bet.

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All my eastern red cedars are already carriers of CAR so I can’t avoid it no matter what. It hasn’t seemed to affect my Goumi bushes.

Hmmmm… I have 2 … 25 ft tall and wide eastern red cedars about 30 ft from my two goumi bushes.

The goumi bushes have been here since 2020 and no sign of any type of disease or foilage issues… no CAR at all.

My apples in the same bed as the goumi … did get some CAR… 2 of them were just lightly affected… Gold Rush suffered CAR most of the 3.

This is the first I have heard of goumi being succeptable to CAR… never would have thought that … mine show no sign of it.

TNHunter

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Apparently Elaeagnus including Goumi are only susceptible to Pacific Pear Rust. Cotton Root rot,Verticillium wilt and canker are it’s main non-west coast problems.

Good to know. I might try Goumi here then.

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After a lot, a lot, a lot of research including thinking about what all of you guys said I have my plan for planting this spring. I am quite proud of it, but nobody I know in person would be able to appreciate/understand/critique it like some of you guys so I wanted to post it here. Feel free to share any thoughts.

Here is a screenshot of my spreadsheet with plant types cost, sources, spacing, and other notes.

Here is a aerial picture of the land. I have 16 rows cover cropped currently 20ft on center and 150ft long, but I am adding 4 more rows as I plant this spring 2 persimmons (orange) and Pawpaws (green) near the woods since I figures those will be able to compete with the woods line the best and 2 blackberry rows in-between two of the already cover cropped rows.

Here is a street view of the nice north/north eastern slope I am working with which I hope is going to at least make a hair of a difference in my fight against late spring frosts

A few notes:

  1. I switched to high density Pears, Asian Pears, Apples, and Peaches. I don’t want to be climbing ladders for the rest of my life, I don’t want fruit 10 years from now from seedlings. I can replant it again in 15 years and be just fine. Hopefully the farm makes enough to cover those cost easily. I think a tall spindle would not be bad to spray even for things that have to be sprayed such as peach and Apple. Fusseto/Tall Spindle Peaches feels pretty Avant Garde for Kentucky so I am really excited about trying that. Also if they are all Tall spindle the pruning will be decently similar enough to probably be able to teach my kids so they are able to help as they get bigger.

  2. I I have lots of trellising and grafting to do in the next couple years, but I am hoping the day neutral Strawberries I plant this spring and what I have planted already will yield enough to sell at farmers market to finance all of that next year. Day neutrals can produce the same year planted and that is what I am banking on, hoping to have them under low tunnels and on aluminized plastic to cool as much as possible to squeeze some extra yield.

  3. I am wanting to sell a lot at farmers markets at first, but slowly switch to more of a membership or reservation U-pick as the years go on. Not going to be into agritourism, but hope to find a handful of people to help fall in love with local and unique fruit. With this variety of plants I should have fruit from April-October and if a high tunnel grant comes through I can maybe squeeze out a another month or two. If I ever got organized enough I feel like this would lend itself well to a Fruit CSA.

I think I’ll post my questions in another thread I’ll make, but I wanted to post an update for those who gave me some time and shared their input when I posted this back in the Fall. Thanks Again!

Just realize that this is going to be a lot of work. Maybe not tackle it all in the first year. Remember that your wife and kids need you, too.

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Agree. I hope you will consider doing this in stages. My gut tells me it’s way, way too much for one person to handle and will turn what could be a really fun hobby into an unrelenting burden. Do you know anyone growing no-spray peaches near you? Some of the finest growers on this forum have given up on no-spray peaches- best not to learn this the hard way. You’ll want to pick your apple varieties very, very carefully.

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