In 2017, I planted Black Ice and Alderman, which are reported to pollinate each other. Both grew well. At this point, I’m not sure which is which – I didn’t keep a clear record, assuming that I could tell them apart based on the fruit. Of course, that assumes fruit.
One of the trees (the one which I believe to be Alderman) has flowered prolifically. It’s loaded right now. The other (the one which I believe to be Black Ice) has not. It blooms later and much less. The consistent result has been very little fruit on either tree.
Is there a good explanation for the poor performance of the second tree? For example, is it possible that the tree will start to bloom prolifically next year?
Plan B would be to top-work the poor performer with another variety or varieties. Any suggestions.
BTW, I chose to grow these hybrids because Black Knot is rampant in this area, surviving in a natural reservoir of wild black cherry. One the years I killed a bunch of pure Asians, but I’m now reconciled to not growing Asian plums ever. I’ve also killed some European varieties but now grow two varieties that seems resistant. Meanwhile, these two hybrid trees have not shown any susceptibility and they have survived longer than my other trees. They just don’t fruit!
Hi JRD,
While I am not familiar with either of your varieties, I have @ couple of thoughts that may help you find a solution. My quick research shows:
Originating in the central states, cultivars of the American plum include “Hawkeye,” “Blackhawk,” “De Soto,” “Fairlane,” “Alderman,” “Weaver,” “Stoddard,” “Tecumseh,” “Toka” and “Waneta.” and
Black Ice® Plum: This cultivar is a cross between a conventional Japanese plum and a cherry plum. The plums produced are adored for their dark red skin, red flesh, and sweet.
Given that both varieties are related to wild native plums American Plum and P. Cerasifera (cherry plum), you may find that grafting some of your top limbs with these varieties would improve fruiting.
Here is a part of my blossom schedule so far for this spring:
2023 schedule: code FB = full blossom, BAL = Balloon, PF = petal fall
On 3/20/23:
Cherry Plum: FB, petal fall began this week!
On 4/6/23:
Methley: FB
Beauty: BAL, FB on 4/10
Sweat treat: FB
Oblinaya: FB
Flavor king: BAL to FB
Satsuma: BAL to FB
Adara: FB
Most of my other native wild plums to include Wild Goose are swelling bud stage but not yet blossoming.
Suggest keeping your notes each year on when your trees come into ballon stage just before blossoming, and inquire of other members near your if they have varieties in sync with your trees. I happen to have three different varieties of p. Cerasifera just in case you need scions. All three actually blossom about the same time and have extended long periods of flowering before petal fall. The first 10 days of FB are critical for pollination since many varieties do not have flowers that long, so matching your schedule is paramount! I can send you my complete variety list and blossom schedule if you wish.
Dennis
Kent, wa
Dennis, Just a correction; no cerasifera in ‘Black Ice’. It’s a cross of ‘Oka’ ( which Dr. Hansen said is about 3/4 besseyi and 1/4 triflora) and the asian plum 'Zee’s Blue Giant.
I contacted Dr. Brian Smith at UW-River Falls years ago about Black Ice plum. It can be pollinated with Toka most years but sometimes just barely. It can also be pollinated with american plum.
I see some say La crescent is supposed to work too.
I have both plums, but Black Ice blooms way before Alderman in W Washington. AU-Rosa and Hollywood bloom along side it here. Both seem to pollinate Black Ice.
Toka blooms much later with LaCrescent and Alderman. My Chickasaw plums are not quite at the white-tip phase.
Can you show us some photos for I.D. purposes? My Toka blooms look different from Black Ice-there is a coloration in the sepals. Black Ice also has a distinctive sand cherry leaf shape. I think the sand cherry in Black Ice may make it more susceptible to blossoms blight. I am wondering if the lack of flowering could be blossom blight killing your fruiting spurs?
Here’re some photos. I start with the more prolific bloomer, both a shot of the whole tree and a close up. Then the less prolific bloomer. Timing does not seem to be the issue, as both trees have open blossoms., One just has way more blossoms than the other.
Thanks again for the help.
p.s. These trees are growing roughly 25-30’ apart. So growing conditions are identical.
Au Cherry is a cross between chickasaw and Methley, but I think it is very black knot resistant. It is the first plum to bloom for me, very early and blooms profusely. I might be able to get you a stick next year.
Since Black Ice is on the topic, if I wanted to graft Black Ice to a pre-existing tree, what would I want to graft it onto? Can I graft it onto Toka? A cherry-plum? Euro Plum? Japanese Plum? Have all those as options, just not sure which is the most suitable.
I successfully grafted black ice to a Euro this year. I suspect all the candidates you listed would work to graft onto. I think a vigorous Japanese tree such as shiro might be your best choice.
Non euro plums are unlikely to thrive grafted euro plums. Most other plums are generally compatible and having some American plum in it’s background increases comparability.
@nil – I think you might have figured out the issue. When I was taking the picture, it struck me how little growth activity I could see along the branches. What there is tends to be concentrated near the tips. It made me wonder whether s disease might be affecting the fruit spurs.
Everyone else – thanks for all the comments and suggestions. I think my best bet may be to topwork the tree that is underperforming. I’ve got a lot of good suggestions from you for varieties to graft. One remaining question is whether the remaining de facto interstem of Black Ice will cause the grafted scions to acquire its susceptibility to blossom blight?
