How close to a scion node do you graft to the rootstock?

[beforeIdie]

I can’t figure out by watching and looking at pictures how close to a node on a scion you get to the rootstock. You want some distance to the node on the scion don’t you, from say a whip and tongue graft? I thought it might help me figure out how many scions I can get from a stick. I saw things on here but it wasn’t clear or the pictures were deleted long ago.

[JohannsGarden]

It shouldn’t matter, but my personal preference is to have the lowest bud on the scion be below the highest point of the cut on the rootstock.

[beforeIdie]

I’m confused.

[thepodpiper]

It really doesn’t matter as long as you have buds above the graft anywhere

[murky]

I try to have a scion but pointing the direction I want it to grow from. I remove host/rootstock buds that are close to the graft union.

I generally don’t pay attention to where the lowest scion bud is, except when I’m wrapping, depending on what I’m wrapping with. I don’t want to crush fleshy, or protruding buds, and sometimes years later, one may have some doubt if a but is host or scion if its right at the graft union.

I usually don’t assume my first cut will be the one I use - and if it isn’t to my liking, I make a fresh cut, rather that whittle.

[swincher]

@beforeIdie

I’m confused.

Here are some diagrams from The Grafter’s Handbook showing examples of what @JohannsGarden means, with the lowest bud on the scion below the highest part of the graft union:

I generally don’t pay much attention to the location of scion buds, focusing more on the number of bud sites than their exact orientation.

[oscar]

There really is no minimum distance between the graft and the first bud on a scion. So if you where really skilled at cutting. Each piece of a scion with a bud could be used to graft with.

This is easier with technique’s like chip or T budding. But can also be done with W&T. (although impractically hard)

Some people keep 2-3 buds on the W&T (whip and tongue) so if you want to see how many grafts you can do with a scion, i would go for 3-4 internode lengths. If you cut a little shorter and end up with 1 bud it’s fine to.

If you want to get the absolute most out of your scion’s. I think your best bet is Chip budding (or T-budding, chip is imo “better” though. Can also be done when the bark is not slipping.)

If had scions with only 4 buds that i did 4 successful grafts with. using chip budding. I have even grafted internodes without a visible bud from the 2-1 year old transition. And forced them long enough to grow. (took some patience. And a lot of rootstock buds to break off)

This post i posted before has some nice video’s (not mine) teaching chip budding.

Questions not deserving of a whole thread

I have had better results with chip budding vs cleft. But i dunno why. I think both can be equally succesfull. If you have enough scionwood. You can always cleft the end piece of the rootstock and do a chip bud below it. Is also a good way to practise chip budding T-bud is probably slightly easier to execute, knife wise. However it can be tricky timing when the bark is slipping. Not only time of year, but also age of rootstock and how you treated it. Chip budding is much more mu…

I would highly advise parafilm or similair for chip budding. Although it can also be done with other materials. If using anything else than parafilm (or buddy tape or similar) take care not to wrap over the bud of the scion. (if you wrap over 1 bud of a W&T but it has 1-2 “free” buds it’s fine)

ps: if your first (and only) bud on the scion is really close to the graft union. I would cut of the closest internodes on the rootstock (don’t just knock the bud of, “shave” of a slice including the bud and 1-2 mm next to it)

That way it’s easier to be sure your growing the scion (bud) and not the rootstock. And lessens the need to unwrap graft unions to check.