Questions not deserving of a whole thread

Thank you so much- both for the answer, the research tip, and not making me feel too silly. Once I started searching rootstock stool beds, at your suggestion, wouldn’t you know there are a couple good threads right here in this site that I somehow never saw until google led me to them just now. Anyway, this is very interesting.

But as long as I’m asking, this leads me to another one…if they can grow thousands of clones using this method, why not use the same method and just grow known apple varieties this way. Doing so would make grafting unnecessary it would seem. I mean, using my example above, why not cut down a yellow delicious create a bed, and then harvest the trees. Wouldn’t they be true Yellow Delish then? (or whatever variety)?

I suspect the answer might be that most good apple producing trees wouldn’t have very good roots, and certainly wouldn’t be dwarfing or have other positive characteristics that known rootstocks provide. But surely some good apple varieties would have good roots. And some people still buy standard trees. So it seems like there would be at least SOME known apple varieties that could be grown and sold this way, thereby bypassing grafting but still getting a known quality fruit producer. ???

EDIT: about the time I hit enter I realized the problem with my idea…first you would have to have a known variety (like Yellow Delish) on its own roots before you could encourage it to send up shoots to make a bed for and harvest. I guess that is why no good apple trees are propagated this way to remove the need for grafting?

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Here is an interesting article about this:

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Like said earlier by TurkeyCreekTrees all MM111 is cloned.

uniformity
-However seedling tree’s that yield roughly the same size tree. Are true seedlings.
You can just plant random pips from apples. And you get seedling tree’s that you can graft.
However you can expect higher variance of eventual size and other characteristics (like disease resistance)

hybrids
-This is due to, most apples being hybrids of hybrids.
If you have multiple plants that are verry similair to eachother. Like most “wild” species. They produce “true to type” seeds. Thus the seeds yield roughly the same plant as the parants that made the seed.
For tomato’s you see this a lot. When they keep crossing (or backcrossing) similair tomato plants for a few (mostly 7+) generations. They get a true to type seed.
However if you cross 2 different (true to type) tomato’s. You get what they call a hybrid or F1 hybrid. Those all look quite similair (uniform). But their offspring will be all over the map.

How it is done with “named” seedling rootstocks like “Malus sylvestris Bittenfelder”
-The same happens with fruit rootstocks. You can make sure an true (or true-ish) to type apple tree is pollinated by the same variety (selfed or from the same true to type seed batch). And you get seedlings that are more uniform. They will still be less uniform than cloned rootstocks though.

For the cloning of fruiting varieties idea.
This is or was done with a lot of fruit. (grapes figs etc)

easy of rooting
-Not all apples or fruit species root easily. Or sucker profusly. Sometimes you can get somthing to grow on it’s own roots. Most of the time this is done by grafting on a dwarfing rootstock, and burying the graft union. Since they root to slow to get good cuttings of. And when grafted and burried it can take years to grow it’s own roots without dehydrating.

This is also why you plant the graft union above ground on dwarfing fruit tree’s. If the union is to low. Your fruiting varietie can grow it’s own roots and get larger.

Pick 8 out of 300+ options
-However grafting does not only yield a convenient way to multiple a variety. (think about it. most tree’s are chip budded or T-budded. So most tree’s completly grew from a single bud!! With 1 tree, you can produce enough buds for acres and acres of orchard)

Or pick 8 + 8 out of 300+ options
-It is also a convinient way to combine the “good” properties of 2 different plants.
When breeding plants you always have to choose between different properties. And by grafting you can breed plants, where you only pay attention to root properties. (size of tree disease resistance, adaptability to soils etc)
And breed other varieties where you ignore the root properties and only pay attention to the fruits and leafs (above ground parts) of the tree.

A lot of rootstocks are specificaly selected for their ease of rooting. You see this in pears. Most pears don’t root easy. But the clonal pyrus rootstocks do a lot better. Same for MM111. It was used above seedlings because those where hard to clone and less uniform.

This also leads most rootstock fruits to not be so great. Since they where not bred/selected for that. (although i heared MM106 was decent)

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Question about cleft grafting VS bud grafting - in stone fruit. ?
To wait and try summer bud grafts - or NOT. ?
Are my chances of having successful cleft grafts with peaches, nectarines and plums pretty low - compared to bud grafting ?

I feel more comfortable doing the cleft grafts once the temps are a bit higher. Bud grafting would be brand new territory for me. But, I don’t want to be wasting my time - and the scions I’ve traded for . . . if the rates of success just aren’t in my favor.

Any advice on this one? Thanks.

You will probably get different answers as people may have different grafting experience.

My general rule is when trees start to wake up and push out some green, I can graft. That apply to most fruit trees except for peaches/nectarine.

I like to wait for temp to be 65-70 before I graft peaches. Temp seems to be important for peach graft callusing.

Plums are very easy to graft. When your trees show some green leaves, you can graft.

Cleft graft is fine. Make sure you tighten the graft union well and cover exposed graft union area with either parafilm or other material of your choice.

You can graft in the spring. If that fails, you can try budding in the summer. It does not have to be either or. Look up T-budding. Someone here posted very good pics and instructions about T-budding and chip budding.

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I have had better results with chip budding vs cleft. But i dunno why. I think both can be equally succesfull. If you have enough scionwood. You can always cleft the end piece of the rootstock and do a chip bud below it. Is also a good way to practise chip budding :slight_smile:

T-bud is probably slightly easier to execute, knife wise. However it can be tricky timing when the bark is slipping. Not only time of year, but also age of rootstock and how you treated it.

Chip budding is much more multi purpose (summer winter, whenever ! Dormant scion or non dormant scion :smiley: )

If your gonna train yourself to learn another graft besides cleft. I would advise chip bud. (and use parafilm M for chip budding)

Plums are almost as easy to graft as pears and apples. So you can graft em fully dormant. (even before the rootstocks leaf out)

Peaches and nectarines i have limited experiance with. But if read a lot, that they like higher temps.

excelent chip bud vid

His knifework somtimes is a little dangerous. I think because he wants to get in in the camera frame. Locking your thumbs helps a lot, especialy when doing bench grafts.

This is also a nice vid for chip budding. A little long. But might be a nice pace for a newcomer.

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I was just reading about this the other day and wondered if anyone here propagates their own rootstocks using stool beds. What do you suppose the time frame would be from planting M111, through the process to the point that you can dig your new rootstocks to use?
I guess I better do some more searching and reading up on this.

Thank you all for your answers. :slight_smile:

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I would guess probably 4 years. Planting year, 2 years of growth, and then maybe new root stock growth of larger enough size the 4th growing season. M7 you could probably shorten to 3 years. I have no idea how long commercial growers allow root stock to grow before making that 1st cut on the mother roots.

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I watched this a couple of years ago.

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Thanks @k8tpayaso , that was a good video! Doesn’t look hard, but I guess you have to be patient :wink:

@TurkeyCreekTrees , you were correct. The Kuffel Creek video above says they grow the M111 for 1 or 2 years before cutting it at ground level., then harvest the suckers the following year.

I remember seeing someone placing clothespin on an apple tree whip to identify where they wanted buds to sprout. I think they notched them too, then removed buds between the clothespins. Can anyone help me find this video?

Seek and ye shall find: Before You Cut Back Your New Fruit Tree, Watch This! Training by Notching and Dis-budding & pruning - YouTube

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Thanks for the link.

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Is Nichols plum European or Japanese? It is listed as both different vendors. I want to be sure that I locate it appropriately for pollination.

From the limited pictures on a few nursery’s websites,the leaves look like those of an Asian Plum.

Really curly leaves on my Weeping Santa Rosa plum tree. Some branches aren’t so bad. Leaves also tend to be very weak and slightly translucent. Don’t remember the new growth looking like this in years past.

I ripped off a few and don’t see aphids, etc.

Any ideas what this could be?

You sure about the aphids? Are you checking the undersides of the leaves? The curling suggests aphids, and while I can’t quite make it out, I can imagine that I see a couple of green peach aphids on the bottom of the leaf at the upper left of the photo.

If it’s not that, might it be frost damage? We did have a pretty cold snap here in the Bay Area before the last rain, and that growth is young enough to be pretty tender.

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Its kind of got a herbicide or an aphid look to me

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I am 100% with @RichardRoundTree , but I sure hope we are wrong. Most have seen my story, but here it is. You might like seeing the photos. Most people assume herbicides would just cause leaves to wilt, turn yellow, and/or fall off. But 2, 4-D actually leaves them green but causes them to grow in an accelerated. curly shaped way- at least for a while. Note the photos in the first post on my thread.

Good luck! Hope we are wrong and it is aphids or something else.

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