How to make Santa Rose J. plum bloom?

Once it starts flowering it will need a compatible pollinator- another J. plum.

I am where it gets pretty cold and Santa Rosa bears well for me here in southeastern ny, inland enough to reach -13 this morning. How cold does it get in Chicago?

I do get some cambium damage on it here while at sites I manage just a few degrees warmer on cold nights they never show sign of cold injury.

Interesting question about the flower buds. I would guess they start off as flower buds, but does it really matter? They certainly have become flower buds well before the winter that precedes their floral display. Most spring flowering trees develop their flowers the season before.

I think Santa Rosa is worth putting up with. I bought a weeping one more for ornamental reasons. It is a shy bearer and fruit buds are sensitive.
Superior is a good plum. Chicago is not as cold as me, I think it is zone 7 Santa Rosa should be fine! I’m in 5a! And will grow it. Look at the plums sold by Adams and Grandpa’s both carry plums that work. And Grandpa’s carries Santa Rosa.
I will report my experiences as they happen so for now I really cannot suggest any.
I need more time to see what works. I’m hoping Bob will send me some plum scion to try out. That should give me an idea of what works here.

Alan, Chicago IL is 5b, according to new zoning system. I think SE NY is warmer. But this year, Chicago is warmer and less snow which I guess it all dumped to New England area. I have never seen any winter injury of the Santa Rose tree either. It is always a pretty healthy tree to me.

I am not sure the coldest temperature really kill all the flower buds. Last year, we had long period of low temperature down to -20. But we also had ton of snow on the ground which buried part of my peach tree. I did harvested some peaches, July Elbert which is not known for winter hardiness, and Reliance, where the branches were buried under few inches of the snow. How much warmer it will be under few inches of snow? Maybe cold wind has something to do of killing the flower buds??

I was curious of when the buds were formed which help me to determine which month I should put P in the ground to help form more flower buds.

If -20 is highly unusual and your normal low is between -5 and -15 you can probably grow Santa Rosa, although it may die suddenly, even after a winter that wasn’t the worse.

I always forget if b is warmer or colder than a. Sorry, I know I’m supposedly some kind of expert, this being my business.

P won’t help you get more flower buds unless your soil is extremely deficient, IMO. That’s an old hort myth based on experiments in sterile soil and perhaps the fact that N can extend juvenility by encouraging excess vegetative vigor.

Alan,

I have to disagree with you. Adding triple super phosphate is not a hort myth. I’ve seen it work first hand in my own orchard.

That is you don’t believe it is a myth. Try to find any research to back up your claim- situations where trees without obvious P deficiency signs in the leaves failed to flower as a result of inadequate P. I have seen plenty of photos of P starving trees where the leaves and fruit were a complete mess but trees still managed to flower and fruit.

I can imagine a situation where flowering might be improved in a certain soil with the addition of P, but the idea that a tree that completely fails to flower but has leaves that show no sign of a P deficiency will be helped with a P application makes no sense to me.

When folks regard limited anecdotal observation as established fact, any subject can become clouded with contradicting claims passionately stated by each believer.

Here’s some information about the importance of P in fruit production.

We already had this argument a few months ago, but in a different context. I was suggesting that amending soil with P is rarely demonstrably helpful in commercial orchards but did find some research where it did seem to increase yields in some commercial orchards in Australia. It is amazing at how seldom P deficiency is encountered in orchards in this country.

You stated your opinion and I stated mine. Why can’t you accept that?
I know all about the importance of P in fruit production. But for some reason,
you have to give the impression that you know everything there is to know about growing fruit, and quite frankly, you don’t.

The reason I can’t accept that is because I really don’t want this to be another forum where people just talk on about their unfounded opinions- it drives me nuts. If all you have is a random anecdotal experience, I think it is just wrong to give strangers advice based on such limited evidence- not that it is something I never do.

When I do, please call me out on it and lets try to keep this forum more fact based than faith based.

Do some work, and find some back up if you feel strongly about your opinion. Researchers have been studying the 3 majors for many decades and there’s plenty of research on the consequence and frequency of P deficiency in fruit production.

You are free to state your opinions, of course, no matter what the foundation, but I’m not sitting on my hands.

I’m sure you think this is all about my ego, but maybe I’m just passionate about getting this stuff right.

I guess you’re going to have to get used to being driven nuts, because I 'm not going to present a doctoral dissertation about every topic on which I comment.
You may get off on that, but I don’t. Newbies, that post on this forum, want practical answers to their questions, not reams of hypothetical drivel that doesn’t provide them with the practical information for which they asked. When I post about something, of which I have first hand knowledge, based on my in the field experience, I’m going to post it. You say that I’m free to state my opinions, and for that matter, so is everyone else. And I take offense at you presuming to assume the role of PC officer, and correcting every poster, whose opinion you don’t like. As my mother used to say, “Nobody died and made you king.”

Rayrose, I will bring this up with staff and let the others decide if your response is appropriate and warranted.

To me this isn’t personal but you take contradictions personally and it stinks up the forum, IMO. Such remarks as yours shouldn’t be for public consumption here.

Funny how often these newbies, who you seem to believe you understand so well, so often thank me for my help. I am tempted to fight you back with searing personal commentary, but as I said, it doesn’t belong here.

If you ever think I’m out of line and want to get aggressive, either e-mail me or complain to staff.

I received your response as an email and I responded to you as an email.
I had no intention of making this public. How it got here, I don’t know.

Well, next time I piss you off, just e-me at alandhaigh@gmail.com. Thought you had that.

This forum e-mails posts to people when a comment follows one they submit.

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For what its worth I’m seeing a university of California website saying they’ve never seen a documented case of phosphorus deficiency in a commercial orchard. I’m on a cellphone so I can’t link. Should Google up easily enough.

I guess I should say that I have poisoned quite a few plants with treble super phosphate in my time. No fruit trees that I’m aware of, although maybe the link just wasn’t obvious.

I have been told by someone whose opinion I highly respect that I would have gotten my point across better without offending Rayrose by posting something more like the following.

Incidentally, when I originally opined that applying triple P as a solution to a fruit trees lack of flowering was a “myth”, I did not realize I was contradicting someone else’s post. I was only responding to the original poster’s statement that she intended to dose the tree with P.

To me, some questions in horticulture are close enough to being settled that an authoritative answer can be given. The question about a plum tree or other plant that refuses to flower is one of the basic questions horticulturists are asked and if you went to any cooperative extension in this country and they reached out to their respective universities for guidance, none would likely suggest that the cause was insufficient phosphorus, especially if symptoms of the deficiency weren’t long apparent in other ways.

If you went to a forum on growing pot or roses and wanted big flowers, however, you’d be blitzed with recommendations to dose those babies up with an extremely high P fertilizer. Hobbyists swear by it.

When I was studying this stuff in school a quarter a century ago, this P theory- the idea that N served the leaves and P serves roots and flowers was debunked by my teachers. I was taught that it is excessive N that can cause overly vigorous vegetative growth that hinders flowering and when combined with ample water can reduce root growth (roots grow to reach water AND N), but that early experiments were done that didn’t differentiate between simply lowering the amount of N and the increasing application of P when concluding that P specifically encouraged flowering. I was taught that the correct balance of N and P encourages both root and fruit.

I believe the myth that high levels of P are required to get big flowers or fruit is perpetuated by folks who are excessively feeding their plants N and follow someone’s advice and substitutes their fertilizer with something extremely high in P but light on the N. When the plants settle down and become focused on sexual reproduction instead of vegetative growth, the P gets the credit when actually it is about the reduction in N.

http://www4.ncsu.edu/~djgofort/Fruit2.htm

Here is an example of how an extension horticulturist might answer the question of why a tree won’t flower. I’m not satisfied with it because I know that fruit trees often don’t flower because of over pruning of the wrong type, which the author of the above article doesn’t mention, but he does address the P issue.

http://www.rose.org/phosphorus-fallacies-too-much-of-a-good-thing/

The above is a well written article about the affect of P on flowering of roses.

Anyhow, the point of all this is that I wish there was a way this forum could present the current understanding of the science on some of the fundamental questions that people come here with instead of a barrage of confusing claims and counter claims based primarily on anecdotal experience. But then it wouldn’t be a forum, it would be a university based cooperative extension. Oh well.

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Alan. Sometimes it is easy for a beginner like me to take the information provided and assume it is correct. It is enjoyable to hear all the ideas that are provided, but when all is said and done it is the supported information like you provide that normally prevails. Thanks for being the voice of reason. Bill

Thanks A, by the way, I poorly read the first article, he does state excessive pruning is often the problem, just not in the manner a fruit specialist would. He says that cutting off flowers that formed the previous year is how bad pruning can delay bloom but lots of stub cuts can also extend the general juvenility of a tree hormonally so that a tree doesn’t even generate flower buds for the next season.

I beg to differ with you. That doesn’t always happen. Yours was one of only two that I’ve ever received.

RayR, you are right. I don’t know how it happened.

Thought I would add my experiences with plums/pluots not blooming. I have a Beauty and Satsuma plum that have been in ground for over 5 years. I have a couple of multi-graft pluots that have provided 1 or 2 fruit but they’ve only been in ground about 2 years.

I’ve never had more than a handful of flowers from any tree and have only had 2 or 3 Beauty plums and 0 Satsuma plums. I believe a big part of my problem was definitely overpruning and using a lot of heading cuts instead of thinning cuts. My plan was to cut down my Beauty plum last year and plant something more productive. Well, my wife talked me out of it and several posters told me to be patient. I think this is the year, things are going to go off. My pluots are about to flower like crazy, in giant rows and bunches. My Beauty plum is failry dormant but I’m already seeing the makings of several flower buds. Satsuma plum is completely dormant but I am hopeful of that flowering like crazy as well.

Long story short, I think there are things that can be done (things that shouldn’t be done) and maybe it is just time. I think with a much older tree, the solution would be different, but in my situation with younger trees, it seems to just be time.

A sight I have never seen at my house before ; )

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