I don’t understand this comment. I think you miss the point that NA in Japanese Kakis can come through two mechanisms – PCNA is a recessive trait, PVNA seems to be what you call a penetrant trait. These are controlled by different genes. For example, Izu has 6 PCNA alleles and also appears to have 2 PVNA alleles.
I agree that JT-02 has 3 PCNA alleles, inherited from Taishu. But I see no reason to infer the presence of any PVNA alleles.
@ramv – Maybe this will help . . . . I believe that these are all crosses of PVNA x PCNA varieties. It looks like the PVNA is sometimes the female. Parents are listed on the left. PVNA status (PVNA / PVA / PCA) is listed on the right.
Note that some PCNA names (e.g., Izu, Fuyu) have a much higher likelihood of producing PVNA offspring, which I assumes reflects some PVNA heritage.
I couldn’t find / access the entire article.
Thank you. This is very helpful!!
The odds don’t appear too bad!
What was your female? Sorry if I missed it.
I would hazard a guess that PCNA is epistatic, at least I think that’s the right term, to PVNA as well, since for the PV trait to be expressed, you need to have enough tannin to polymerize visibly. PCNA cultivars have less tannin to begin with.
That seems right. But I have to add that people have noted some coloration in seeded Fuyu, despite its unequivocal status as a PCNA. I don’t have a good explanation; maybe the amount of tannin required to exceed a visual threshold is less than the amount needed to exceed a taste threshold.
All my fruits are seeded
The males are Nishimura Wase, Maru,Zenji Maru
Fruits this year
Kasandra
Chuchupaka
Nikita’s gift
JT02
Jiro
Nishimura Wase
Maru
ZenjiMaru
Honan Red
Mikatani Gosho
Saijo
Given those names, I’d assume that 20% is a pretty good guesstimate. To guess higher, we’d have to believe that there’s a PVNA allele hidden in one of the PCNAs (Jiro). If there were a PVNA allele hidden in one of the PCA Kakis (Honan Red, Saijo), it presumably would be evident already. Ditto the hybrids, I suppose, though you never know.
Mikatani Gosho is PVNA. I’m hoping the offspring is 100% PVNA if female.
Oops. Thanks for clarifying. I just assumed PCNA because so many other Goshos are. I’ve fixed my post.
Yes, I’d be very surprised if PVNA x PVNA produced anything else.
I have a question to people who is working on breeding NA hybrid persimmon.
With a neighbor’s strong “addiction” to one particular persimmon’s fruits, I now have a strange variety. We call it ISMAIL. It is planted by someone 50 years ago because of its small, cone shaped, great tasting fruits. Zone 8A in Turkey. It is either PVNA or PCNA and looks and tastes like SAIJO, even while the fruits are green and seeds are white, it tastes better than IZU. All of its fruits are seeded, thats why I am not able to decide if it is PCNA or PVNA.
So my question is: What would be the result of crossing JT-02 and ISMAIL? Wouldnt it be more possible to get NA hybrids?
Does ISMAIL produce male flowers?
Most probably it produces male flowers. I called the guy and from what he says some fruits are with no seeds and still NA. That made me think that it is PCNA. He says there are no other male plants around. The guy is old and difficult to discuss flowers etc. Original tree is a few hundred kms away from me. I grafted some and in one old tree I grafted JT02, Izu, Matsumoto Wase Fuyu and Ismail to different branches.
I will share pictures later in the season.
Yes, it sounds PCNA.
Let’s assume it produces male flowers. As a PCNA, it must have 6 NA alleles so any pollen would carry 3 NA alleles. JT-02 (Josephine x Taishu) must have 3 NA alleles. So any ovum from JT-02 could carry 0, 1, 2, or 3 NA alleles.
If assortment of alleles to gametes were purely random, the probability that JT-02 x PCNA produces a PCNA offspring is 5%. However, experiments with non-hybrid crosses of PCA Kaki x PCNA Kaki followed by back-crosses of F1 x PCNA Kaki produce ~15% PCNA offspring. The best explanation is that assortment of alleles to gametes is not random – when one PCNA allele moves, another tends to follow.
So it seems to me that ~15% of the offspring from your proposed cross would be PCNA. ~85% would be PCA.