For the Ukrainians who pioneered hybridization (producing Rosseyanka and its descendants), the main goal was cold-hardiness. That’s the main source of excitement for northern growers in the U.S. – improved Kaki-like fruit in a cold-hardy package. Kassandra (Great Wall x F2 Rossey Male) is a great example – some Kaki taste but also cold hardy. I don’t believe the Ukrainians ever used a non-astringent Kaki parent.
For the American breeder who had the other notable success (producing JT-02 aka Mikkusu), it seems that there was some hope for non-astringency since the Kaki parent is a PCNA variety, Taishu. If that was the goal, it could never have happened given what we now think we know about the genetics. But hope lives! My own excitement relates to the possibility of crossing JT-02 x any male-flowering PCNA Kaki to produce a non-astringent hybrid. Just by chance, JT-02 has turned out to be very cold-hardy so there is a good prospect that a JT-02 descendant can be both non-astringent and cold-hardy.
Once the Ukrainians produced a hybrid that was cold-hardy, they were free to focus on producing further crosses that enhanced other qualities such as flavor, fruit quality, etc. They don’t seem to be in a rush for non-astringency.
Some Americans working with JT-02 are making some crosses with astringent Kaki and Virginiana varieties possibly hoping for a non-astringent result, but again given the genetics it seems very unlikely. The road to a non-astringent hybrid seems to require a cross of JT-02 x a PCNA Kaki make.
There are claims that other breeders have produced other inter-specific DV x Kaki hybrids but those claims seem very dubious.
I planted a Nishimura wase crossed with the cold cold hardy Kaki male Cheong Pyong seed. It probably will turn out to be a Astringent Kaki but more cold hardy than the parent Nishimura wase.
if my understanding of PVNA genetics is correct, the offspring has a 20% chance of PVNA, 60% chance of PVA, 20% chance of PVA. Of course, the offspring may or may not inherit Cheong Pong cold hardiness – that seems 50-50.
Maybe you should do enough crosses so that you’re almost guaranteed to have one offspring that is both PVNA and cold-hardy. Twenty would probably do it.
I do have more seeds but I am more interested in crossing Hybrid persimmons so I can get to -31F for Z4 and Z5A. I may send them out to people in warmer zone to grow them out.
Тhe translation is largely correct. Chinebuli is Jiro.
I do not get all the rave about it. its cold-hardiness is similar to Fuyu & other kakis, yet, a bit less than Kostata.
Being non-astringent makes birds, and plenty of other critters, get the fruit before me.
In the 3rd year of fruiting, the fruits on my tree were still too small - possibly (quite) sensitive to drought, etc. environmental conditions.
Harsh summer (i.e., heat/drought) make(s) some of the fruit mature prematurely, thus extending the harvest, which could be a good thing as long as you prevent the critters over that extended period get the fruit first.
We need to face the fact that (1) all PCNAs (except a few in China) originated in Japan; and so (2) all PCNA varieties with non-Japanese names are exports, synonyms of some Japanese variety. This is true whether the variety comes most recently from Korea (e.g., Tam Kam) or Eastern Europe (e.g., Chinebuli) or the U.S. or wherever.
[The only PCNA breeding has taken place in Japan and Korea. These research facilities have released some names, such as Izu. None of them has tested cold-hardiness or made any related claims.]
So Chinebuli is Jiro – It is not special. The widespread claim that Chinebuli is special should give us pause for reflection. We should ask ourselves how we could have come to this false conclusion. Part of the answer, I think, is that there is a lot of sheer randomness (i.e., variation that we cannot explain) in reported results for cold hardiness. For example, a tree covered in snow can survive extreme cold. The rest of the answer is that it’s human nature to extrapolate from one such random result. We jump to unwarranted conclusions. The hype re Chinebuli should be an object lesson. We need to curb our enthusiam.
I think often “novelties” that are not new at all, e.g., just re-branded, are pushed forth for solely financial benefit. Same reason’s behind the exaggeration of useful traits.
Just curious for hybrids like these below:
Zima khurma (NB-02), Kasandra, Mikkusu (JT-02), Rosseyanka, Chuchupaka, Dr Kazas"
Would you graft them only onto an American persimmon? or possibly to do on Asian like Saiju as well? I was debating adding some to my Saiju if possible (and put other 100% American varieties on my American [maybe on my Prok]).
It is my understanding there is some breeding work being done in places other than Japan and Korea. Respectfully, you’ve already named one of them with apparent disregard. Don’t count out Ukraine, Russia, and the US in the next decade.
I didn’t say “no breeding”; I said “no PCNA breeding.” By that I meant no breeding of PCNA x PCNA designed to produce PCNA offspring. That only happened in Japan and Korea.
There has been extensive breeding work in Ukraine, of course. I’m not sure about Russia, per se; and I will not tolerate confusion between the two. But my understanding is that the Ukrainian program focused on cold hardiness. Thus, the Ukrainian hybrids are all some combination of astringent Kaki and astringent Virginiana. OK, maybe there was a random PCNA or PVNA thrown into the mix. But there were never any PCNA x PCNA crosses, which is what would be required for a non-astringent offspring.
And of course, the U.S. and Japan cooperated to produce JT-02. That is a mix of non-astringent Kaki and astringent Virginiana. But again there is no possibility that such a cross will produce a PCNA offspring.
Maybe there has been some secret PCNA x PCNA breeding elsewhere. So you can amend my phrase to read "no published PCNA breeding. . . . " Let me ask you directly: Can you name a single named PCNA variety released publicly by any breeding station outside those in Japan and Korea?
p.s. You know, I’m sure, that I have strongly advocated back-crossing JT-02 with Taishu (or with any other male-flowering PCNA Kaki). I believe that there are people in the U.S. planning such crosses. So I don’t count out the U.S. at all – as a future contributor.
Chineruli looks exactly same as Fuyu. It seems like the same fruit with different name by two different countries: Japan is calling it Fuyu and China is calling it Chineruli.
It is like the exactly same soybean paste is called differently by Koreans and Japanese; Koreans call it Doen-Jang and Japanese call it Miso.
I’m not aware of any strictly PCNA breeding in published research, although there are some published Chinese studies I’ve seen describing more than a handful of individuals which have dominant PCNA genetics based on my understanding.
Japan has been breeding new PCNA varieties since the 40’s or before. They’ve had >20 public releases, some with familiar names, including Suruga (1959), Izu (1970), and Taishu (1995). Research was centered at facilities in Akitsu and Okitsu. Korea started later but has released roughly 10 varieties starting in ~2010. Most of the research was performed at a facility in Youngam. The stated goal of both initiatives is to produce higher quality nonastringent (PCNA) fruit mainly for the local commercial industries.
Early research focused on simple crosses of known PCNA names. But the genetic diversity among PCNAs is low, so progress was limited. Increasingly the work has tried to incorporate more genetic diversity, turning to PCNA x PCA crosses followed by backcrosses to PCNA males – exactly like the strategy I propose for a non-astringent hybrid PCNA x DV. The Japanese are also now exploring use of the Chinese PCNA, which appears to have different and easier genetics.
Here’s one example among dozens of published articles on the efforts.
Apologies for taking this off topic, but those two things are completely different from each other. Yes, they’re both (mostly, in the case of miso) fermented soybeans, but the manufacturing process, fermentation microbes, and flavor profiles are all different.
Did you end up buying Sunrise? I bought this previous winter and have had it in a large pot since. First leaf was a slow year but it grew slightly and survived this winter, it’s buds are starting to swell now for what will be 2nd leaf.
I emailed Dithmar the other day for his opinion on how Sunrise has been doing as a selection in the following years. Here’s his response:
“Last summer it performed extremely well. It was loaded with fruit and more important: it had one of the highest brix values of all. It was also among the first to ripen. Another client who lives at 1100m in the alps (short season) is also very positive. So I’m confident it should do well in Ireland.”
I’ll have to get it in the ground if it’s that promising! I made a thread about it too a while back with some of his comments from facebook.
Interesting that it’s offspring from Nishijo and it’s a straight Kaki not a hybrid.
I buyed it, but I got a small tree that I kept in a pot for now. I think I will wait with puting it in the ground until it gets bigger to be on the safe side. But I am happy to hear that Dithmar still says so positive things about this variety!
Mine arrived very small too and is still small. I will put it in the ground this year I think. Did you get Kassandra too? Mine came even smaller and died that spring.
btw whats the opinion about Sestronka (NB-21). I don’t see too much talked about it. Cliff said a few years ago if i wanted American flavor but wanted larger fruit that can pick it early in the hard stage like an Asian then this is a good one to go for.
I think I may have seen its extremely non-productive in a post somewhere on here. Is that true?
There’s more newer hybrids for me to graft (like Zima khurma (NB-02), Kasandra, Mikkusu kaki Hybrid (JT-02), Chuchupaka, Dr Kazas Hybrid, Prok x Hokkaido Male, Sofie’s Gift, even maybe old hybrid like Rosseyanka might still be better?) …
So wondering if I should graft on top of it or give it away for a friend to try.
EDIT:
Here was that 1 post i found saying someone only got 1 fruit:
Here is another one, maybe same person giving review of the 1 fruit:
