which is the best tasting PCNA persimmon?
I once had IZU but died over the winter.
and Hana Fuyu, it died after it sprouted with a severe late frost
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@Kaki-pistacia – Just curious – Does it matter which tastes best if it dies? Shouldn’t cold-hardiness be the priority?
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good point. but there are more PCNA Jiro/chinebuli.
I really want to know if they are the same!?
Some say chinebuli should be hardier.
Or Tam Kam should be hardy
I would like to have one PCNA in the garden.
and if the trees were bigger, they could survive.
but yes the PCNA kakis are not the hardiest in my experience
You should talk to @Mikatani regarding what is best for your climate. Most will not lose astringency if you don’t have hot summers. It is entirely possible that no PCNA persimmons are really suitable in some climates.
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I have another question.
Are there more really 50/50 Kaki x virginiana than rosseyanka and Jt-02 ?
I can’t find any other
look for early ripening everything @Kaki-pistacia
the only one I can think of for you currently from my limited knowledge is Hybrid persimmon Dar Sofiyivky growingfruit.org
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I have a solution for you. Just grow the Izu in pot or any PCNA in pots and overwinter them in an unheated garage. I am in Z5 and the temp can dipped down to -31F once in a long while but I got 5 productive Tam Kam in pots. So there is a solution for you.
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i wake up wondering what kind of bs I’ll hear today. you’re good at it.
Dax
Thanks Tony, I wanted to try next year again with Hana Fuyu but in pod anyway.
it should not be that sweet but has very large fruits and ripens early.
But did your Tam Kam survive in the pod at -31F in the garage?
Yes. They are all potted and 6 years old now.
Thanks I will try some kakis in the pod.
Do the tam kam‘s ripen enough in your climate?
Yes. I have a super hot summer.here in the Midwest. Starting in May to September the weather is in the 80s to 90s degrees.
ok that gives me hope.
in good summers it’s the same here
Yeah, I’m trying this approach with Cardinal (possibly aka Soshu). I might also try Chocolate and Coffee Cake in pots.
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Fwiw, I’m skeptical that Chinebuli is as hardy as reported only once. I’ve gotten totally nonastringent Ichi Ki Kei Jiro here in borderline Z6B/7A. The fruit is nonastringent even when firm, not fully ripe.
IKKJ is a bud sport of Jiro. Ramv’s enthusiasm about plain old Jiro should extend to IKKJ.
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His enthusiasm is also recent, and with the caveat that they were pollinated, and I think he may regard them as better due to the seeds.
Yeah, that’s fair. Whether Jiro got better for him with seeds or with age seems unclear to me, but I’m willing to believe that pollination helped. If I can get IKKJ to >20 Brix by pollinating it, I might just do it.
Given Ramv’s experience with Jiro, I don’t see why he wouldn’t try pollinating all his PCNAs before ditching them. And since Fuyu seems to have some PVNA tendencies, I’d especially expect him to try pollinating Fuyu to fight the astringency problems that seem to afflict his “non-astringents.”
p.s. @ramv – I really shouldn’t be talking about you vs asking you directly. You’ve probably got good reasons for the choices you’ve made. I just don’t know what they are.
My flight to warmer climes just got canceled thanks to weather related issues. Now I have some time to hopefully explain my thinking better.
My space is quite limited – I would rather grow a variety of different fruits. If two trees produce similar tasting fruit and are equally productive, one will naturally go. For PCNA fruit, I believe I have found a winner – Jiro. Jiro is super productive and sufficiently tasty for me.
Jiro was only average until this year and it improved dramatically for some reason. (pollination? age?). Now it tastes like it was grown in California and picked at the right time.
I am growing a few others PCNA in pots – Izu, Suruga, and Gil Ya which is probably the same as Izu. Having tasted Izu before, I dont see much difference from Jiro at all. Plus Jiro is vigorous and productive. My neighbor had a 12 year old Izu tree that was smaller than my 6 yo Jiro.
Even so Jiro is not 100% non astringent in my climate every year. This year it was slightly astringent despite pollination. Last year it was not astringent despite no pollination (but far less sweet as well)
But you can buy Jiro at the local asian store for about 49 cents/lb. They are usually quite good – sometimes nearly as sweet as home grown. In California they are so common that they are left outside homes to be taken by passers by.
I think of Jiro as the Brown Turkey of persimmons. Quite decent and well worth growing if they produce heavily for you. Not worth it if you have to grow in a pot and protect during winter. All PCNA persimmons taste about the same to me so they are all “Brown Turkey”.
OTOH PVNA persimmons such as Maru and Coffee Cake have a more unique flavor. Jiro will likely be the main stay for me because of its vigor, size and productivity. But for a more unique flavor – especially if you are growing in pots, I would suggest Maru or Coffee Cake. They are also earlier.
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I’m a bit confused about the fact that your Jiro is vigorous… Jiro, Ichi ki kei jiro, Maekawa Jiro… all Jiro clones and mutations are actually all dwarf varieties. It is one of the few persimmon varieties that really make dwarf trees. Are you sure your tree is Jiro? not that it matters much if the fruit is OK to you…
My opinion and experience with PCNA varieties is that so far I have not tasted any PCNA variety that is actually really acceptably sweet to my liking. I find them all rather bland. There is much better quailty within the PCA group and more importantly even better quality within the PVNA group. You will find a much richer flavour and sweetness in variant astringent type persimmons. It must also be said that some PVNA will not loose astringency even with plenty of seeds if the right climate is lacking. Some need a lot of heat hours to turn non astringent (when seeded). But when they are well ripened, the spicy, cinnamon flavor is unlike that of any other type of persimmons.
Regarding PCNA varieties and pollination: In my experience all PCNA varieties will produce non astringent fruit even in climates that aren’t really suitable. But PCNA varieties are naturally less sweet than PCA and PVNA varieties even in perfect climate but that becomes even more obvious when your climate isn’t suitable. They just don’t have any sweetness at all.
In Europe the single most important variety is the PVA type “Rojo Brillante”. It is grown on a massive scale in Spain and exported worldwide. The reason for its succes is the fact that it is a large sized and very clean fruit with little blemishes on the skin. It has a good sweetness and can be stored for a long time. But the most important reason for its succes is the fact that Spain has developed a perfect protocol for astringency removal for this variety using the CO2 method. This method requires a very precise protocol adapted to one specific variety. The result is that the treated persimmons are of much better quality than any PCNA on the market. Hence PCNA varieties are not commercially grown in Spain. The PCNA varieties are just no match for treated PCA or PVA varieties and there would be no market for it… Now…I’m not promoting Rojo Brillante…I’m just illustrating the superior quality of PCA, PVA and PVNA varieties as opposed to PCNA types.
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@Mikitani – Thanks, that’s informative. But FWIW, I’d read reports from scientists in Japan stating that PCNAs aren’t grown much in northern Japan because the fruits don’t completely lose astringency in a cool-ish climate. That seems to parallel Rama’s experience.