Call Cliff. Get a pencil (or pen) and a piece of paper just the same as me.
I’m all finished here.
This is the Deal
I received. 5 sticks of Scion wood from Jerry in early Spring of 2006
The ones I received from Jerry in 2006 list listed below that he received back from Japan after embryo rescue
NB-02 Zima Khurma
NB-21 Sestronka
JT-02 Mikkusu
JBT-06 but this one Grows so poorly that is it only sets Fruiting wood and not Vegetative growth.
I plant on taking some small 2 and 3 bud cutting from it and doing several bark grafts on big trees this spring enough to produce some wood for everyone as it is really a good fruit sweet and Kind of Shaped like Saijo as I remember.
There was another that I grafted in the yard here at home once the Post entry quarantine was over but it was smaller fruit that Never lost its astringence. So after I did not put any emphases so saving it
BUT JBT-06 was one of the Original 5 from Jerry Lehman
TREES and Scion wood List 2022 DEC Farms 1, 2 and 3 UPDATE.pdf (1.3 MB)
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Thanks. To clarify, I understand from what you’ve written that the 5 varieties received were all produced by embryo rescue. But were all of them progeny of one cross, Josephine x Taishu? FWIW, I thought that NB-02 and NB-21 came from Nikita’s Gift.
Maybe you could settle the issue once and for all if you could tell us the parentage of each variety. Thanks.
"Sestronka / NB-21 Hybrid – Developed by Jerry Lehman of Terre Haute IN. Fruit is very large as large as the Pure Kaki but oh so much tastier and larger than average pure Kaki fruit, is reddish with thin skin does not fall from the tree trees are small and not very vigorous, it is a seedling of Nikitskaya Bordovaya crossed back to Virginiana. Breeding and embryo rescue was performed in Japan to bring this cultivar to the world, is not any more cold hardier than pure kaki persimmon "
" Mikkusu kaki Hybrid = JT-02 - A true 50/50 hybrid of Josephine V. X Taishu Kaki. Bred in Japan, imported by Jerry Lehman in 2006 and grown in several locations in the USA. Medium to large fruit, square-ish shape, is an astringent type till soft when it’s a mouthwatering tasty 2.5 to 3.0-inch fruit. Smallish tree, not vigorous at all, is precocious and has spreading growth habits. It must be staked to support fruit load as it is a very heavy producer. Very cold hardy, has never had any freeze damage or cold injury. Zone 5b and Zone 8 / tested to -16 Degrees F."
" Zima khurma =NB-02 Persimmon bred out of Nikitskaya Bordovaya, cold hardy and good producer of orange medium to large size fruit that ripens Late-season on a semi-vigorous tree. Has low spreading growth habit and is a beautiful specimen in the fall. Trees are very cold hardy tested down to minus -16.4 F for a long time. This cultivar was bred in Japan and brought to America by Jerry Lehman of Terre Haute, Indiana. Zone 5b to ZONE 8, tested to -16 F."
From Clifford’s website at nuttrees.net
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Just some background for clarification:
A “gene” in higher order plants (e.g. persimmon) is a subsection of a chromosome whose length can vary significantly among individuals of the same species. So searching for a gene in a sequence is not a matter of simple pattern matching.
Genes are characterized by which short subsequences of amino acids they contain and how those subsequences are “decorated” with single atoms or (sometimes) clusters of atoms. For example, the sex determination gene in fruit trees with diploid chromosomes uses the presence or absence of a single charged copper atom to indicate “male” or “female”.
In diploid plants, possible locations of unknown genes can be found by capturing the messenger sequences that genes send to various parts of a plant. For example, the search for sex determination was carried out by extracting messenger sequences from stamens and ova. This requires about 1 hour per day per specimen over a period of several days. The result is several thousand different sequences which must be narrowed down by process of elimination. A high-quality full sequence of the specimen chromosomes is also needed (or a reference genome if one exists). Then a tedious search for where the messengers originated begins along with the process of elimination – the latter requiring a knowledge of functional molecular biology. Rarely do horticultural research groups have this expertise and thus the work is contracted out.
This process has not been generalized for higher ploidy fruits such as persimmon for two reasons: (a) the functional dynamics of higher ploidy plants is currently a matter of conjecture, and (b) currently there are no devices for producing viable whole genome sequences of higher ploidy organisms.
Thus, persimmon breeders should currently not concern themselves with discussions of “genes”. Instead, traditional discussions of traits and origins will provide a lot more mileage and for the skilled breeder: better results.
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Thanks. So Dax misunderstood Cliff. NB21 and NB02 are offspring of Nikita’s Gift x an unnamed DV. They are not the result of the same cross as JT-02.
That’s 2 hours of my life that I won’t get back.
This seems like good advice. But some traits are recessive; some are dominant; some are additive; and so on. In everything I’ve written, I’ve tried to focus on patterns of heritability. I don’t give a FF about genes. All I care about is patterns of heritability, which we observe. The behavior of the gene is just a hypothesis designed to explain the mechanism of the observed patterns of heritability. It’s a heuristic.
All that said, it seems easier to understand the pattern of heritability of the J-NA trait if we assume that it is recessive and the C-NA trait if we assume that it is dominant. Absent an assumption about mechanisms, how does the breeder predict results? How does he avoid wasting time traveling down genetic dead ends?
These are old terms that harken back to the days when R. Fisher’s statistical analysis reigned supreme. I recommend you don’t trouble yourself with them. Today’s science of functional molecular genetics is concerned with dynamics. It is how current theories of epigenetics evolved.
This is false for multiple reasons.
One of my relatives bred Citrus, mandarins in particular. He had studied at Cornell and used a standard breeding program mapped out over 80 years. He retired about half way through but the program lived on. In the end were a few spectacular fruits, including Gold Nugget.
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As with many things driven by genetics, it helps to have an objective. From there, it is a numbers game where more crosses made gives better chances of finding something desirable. BUT! You can’t breed what is not there to start with, with a qualified exception that mutations are a very long shot. The guy who bred Bosc pear did it by producing tens of thousands of seedlings and picking the best.
Which brings up the question of mutations. They occur all the time with each reproduction event gaining a number of mutations. The larger the genome, the more mutations per generation… generally, elephants and naked mole rats excepted. The problem with mutations is that they almost always result in a loss of function, not in gaining something useful.
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God forbid anyone should read a textbook concerning the design of breeding programs that have proven successful over and over again.
I’m in no position to assess the technology these researchers used. But they published in Nature, which is one of the very top scientific journals in the world. And evidently they have a view of the genetics of the PCNA trait.
If the terms “dominant” and “recessive” are good enough for these scientists, they’re good enough for me. And if they say that there is a single locus for each, I’ll take their word for it until somebody proves different. I know that there is a lot of complexity elsewhere, as well as fundamental uncertainty when we hybridize species.
<< The genetic difference of the natural de-astringency trait between CPCNA and JPCNA is a single dominant locus controlling in the former genotype but recessive in the latter one. >>
Nature srep44671.pdf (9.2 MB)
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Gora Roman Kosch is PCA.
Bad varieties have circulated in this form… whoever thinks it’s a CPNA must have a mistake. a photo of the fruit would also help to validate.
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Has anybody here every wondered when Cliff last updated his website and had time to think about all the information running in rows every direction at his farm.
Jrd. I want to say to you that you never even gave pause to consider that NB-02 or NB-21 came from (Josephine x Taishu) even though he told me. That website is archaic-ancient!
CALL THE MF. 1 phone call is 1 minute vs. the 2-hours “I cost you.”
At Cliff’s farm:
Hybrid PVNA-type ‘Kuji Naji’
(Rosseymale x Costata) Bred by David Lavergne
Hybrid PVNA-type ‘Kuji Naji’
(Rosseymale x Costata) Bred by David Lavergne
(Note the awesome marketing of Cliff’s text) LOL.
Here’s what happens after Cliff’s Text is interpreted (lol)
Now for anyone that doubts me or Tony (@jrd51) Tony sent this all to me via Cliff. Tony writes:
“Yep. I just spoke to Cliff (Tony CALLED HIM) and he confirmed the siblings are the crossing of Costata X Rossyanka grown in one hole… One is Astringent and one is PVNA. He labeled them separately. I asked him to cut 2 sticks for me. We can cross ( … ) with Cliff PVNA costada X Rossyanka. Exciting”
Again, great marketing!
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Hey Jrd: read AGAIN from Cliff:
The ones I received from Jerry in 2006 list listed below that he received back from Japan after embryo rescue
NB-02 Zima Khurma
NB-21 Sestronka
JT-02 Mikkusu
JBT-06 but this one Grows so poorly that is it only sets Fruiting wood and not Vegetative growth.
Do the final touches on your thoughts now @jrd51
Do you “believe” JT-02 to be a cross of (Josephine x Taishu)?
then… can you presume NB-02 and NB-21 also coming from the same time and place are also JOSEPHINE xTaishu. Or am I just an a-hole and you’ll never believe a thing I say?
See ya
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Oops, I grafted Bliznetsnaja in 2021. Wrong sibling— guess I’ve got to try again for that PVNA.
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From @Stan
He harvested them for every branch of his tree. It’s not a sport unless the wood I sent (him) and the bud that grew became one. How that could effect PCNA from a PCA (no clue for me.) He ate them all summer.
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Dax – It’s not that I don’t believe you. It’s not about you. And it’s not a matter of faith. It’s that you have no solid evidence to support your conclusion.
What do we know?
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Cliff (see his comment above) says that he received the scions from Jerry. He does not state that all 4 varieties are crosses of Josephine x Taishu.
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Cliff’s website (see @disc4tw above) says that both NB-21 and NB-02 descend from Nikita’s Gift. It says that the breeding and ermbyo rescue were performed in Japan.
You can guess that the website is wrong. But you have no evidence. The evidence that we have indicates that these four varieties were all produced by embryo rescue and were all sent from Japan to Jerry Lehman. There is nothing to suggest that all four come from the same cross. That is fantasy.
p.s. I asked Cliff to clarify (above) by telling us the parentage of each variety, if he knows it. He did not respond.
Good luck to you . . .