I’m just west of Madison, WI – so when I say experimental I’m really referring to hybrids as it’s not that difficult to ripen earlier cultivars of d. Virginiana.
I did put in a grafted Mohler last year but it died back to the rootstock over the summer. But I figure I’ll try that one again since it gets such great reviews.
I don’t know. I know some plants shut down at higher temps, but persimmon seem to grow like crazy all summer in the heat. I’ve never noticed any negatives with heat with them. I suppose as long as they have the moisture that they need. Maybe heat for growing wood, and heat for ripening fruit are two completely different things.
I’m not sure how Ukraine is. I assume their hybrids are growing in the milder part of the country where they don’t get any early hard freezes that I might experience.
thats right. I remember now.
sure. thats why I think targeting early ripening cultivars is so important. Dar Sofiyevki and Journey seem like our best hopes for a good reliable hybrid in the north. Ive yet to hear much feedback on Journey, though it sounds like it could be quote early. Cliff’s page says its his earliest, but he also lists Mohler and I find it hard to believe itd be earlier still. Anyone have pics, data or feedback about ‘Journey’? For as good as it sounds it doesn’t seem to be that popular! Sosnovskaya is reasonably early too. Ive heard varying accounts of JT-02 ripening time. Im hopeful that it may ripen some years and that it can be ripened on the counter in off years. Kasandra seems like a maybe too.
Asian persimmons tend to grow at altitude, avoiding hottest temperatures. American persimmons seem to be a temperate zone species as well. I’d guess that neither one really wants high heat.
All C3 plants experience stress and reduced photosynthesis at temps above 85 or so, from what I understand. Total top of the head info, so maybe fuzzy. C4 plants, corn, sorghum… are the ones that thrive in 100 degree heat
I really have no idea – I suspect somebody will have a better sense of this in the next decade or so. Just poking around, I’m not really sure where the most recent generation were bred and tested – my understanding from the other thread on Dar Sofiyivki (Hybrid persimmon Dar Sofiyivky - #39 by jcguarneri) that much of the work was done around Kherson, which at first glance seems similar to somewhere like central Indiana. However, there seems to be some confusion about how much further north it’s been growing. If I remember correctly, @Harbin is in Brno, CZ and has shown some pretty impressive harvests.
Not sure. I haven’t seen anything that looks like heat stress on persimmon even with the worst of heat. They seem to thrive on it including JT-02. Just happy and growing fast. Maybe not as fast as corn, but pretty darn good. Issues like high soil ph in some locations are the only issues I’ve ever had.
So long as they have adequate water, most trees are fine with high temps. Problems occur when water is limited as C3 plants have large stomata and emit high volumes of water vapor in high heat. CAM photosynthesis is a mechanism developed by plants often stressed by both high temps and limited water. CAM plants close stomata and limit photosynthesis in high temps.
Kansas has both high heat, severe wind, and drought as part of regular weather. American persimmon and lotus grow well in somewhat protected areas here. Most of my persimmons i grow on the south side of a man made hill along on the water of my large pond. A single rain gives them 3 times or more the water since they are downhill as other plants. Leaf tatter is avoided by blocking the wind by hills or other trees. Kaki x american Hybrids will be harder if not impossible to grow here. Many hybrids sre now only 12% kaki like sophies gift. Since it is 4th generation it might have a chance. I’m focusing most on what i know works for the moment. Once i address my needs of american persimmons for food then i will look at my wants of the hybrids. I’m learning all i can about hybrids now. These hybrid persimmons look excellent and i’m very interested in them. I might plant a couple as tests this year. I’m impressed with their reportedly large size and sweet taste. I’m looking forward to trying them. I’m going to change gears to hybrids as soon as i take care of the american persimmon project.
Thanks! I’m really focusing on improved American cultivars in outside unprotected locations – next year I’m going to try and graft/bud Early Golden, H63A, Prok, Yates, Mohler, and Barbara’s Blush to go along with my Szukis I put in last year.
JT-02 is on my short list for a potted plant because I’ve read it’s somewhat slow growing but also precocious.
Does anyone on this forum know of a nursery that sells JT-02 persimmon trees? I think this cultivar would be a good match for my garden in southwestern Massachusetts (Zone 6A on the 2023 USDA Zones of Hardiness map. Any suggestions about other hybrid persimmons I might try would also be appreciated.
That one might possibly be too late for you in WI, but it has otherwise been one of the most cold hardy for me in terms of avoiding winter tip burn that many other varieties can experience. -30F didn’t affect even the young wood if I can recall correctly. Several WS8-10 were the least damaged of all varieties.
@TAC_MA – I don’t. That’s why I grafted my own. Would you consider that route? You’d have to buy some DV seedling trees, acquire some scions from JT-02, then graft the scions to the rootstock trees. It’s very doable – and very liberating.
I used to graft apples when I got interested in heirloom apples a long time ago. What rootstocks are recommended for hybrid persimmons? D. virginiana?
Yeah, in this part of the country we use D. Virginiana because it is cold hardy. D. Lotus is more common in CA and Asia.
These persimmon trees can be very hard to come by. I’ve never seen the trees for sale for more than a short while before they are sold out.
Not sure if i asked in another thread, but do any of these hybrids have American flavor? My Saiju asian persimmon puts out 800 fruit, its sweet and I’ve grown to respect that I can pick it unripe and not lose fruit to the animals (cause they hate eating it hard and astringent so i may only lose 30 fruit out of 800 to squirrels, and half of those i can cut off where they bit and dehydrate them to save the fruit). But the flavor doesn’t wow me over like an American persimmon.
Do any of these hybrids have that complex flavor, whether it be caramel/rum/butterscotch/apricot or some thing else? I will definitely graft a few this spring that Im getting from Cliff(and figbid), but curious about the flavor which will influence if i’ll graft them onto my trees or to give away to friends to trial out.
PS the specific varieties im getting are:
Zima khurma (NB-02),
Kasandra,
Mikkusu kaki Hybrid (JT-02):
Rosseyanka,
Chuchupaka
This video is worth watching from above
The reason i bring it up is because he discussed Rosseyanka being the original cross of kaki x american so it is 50% kaki whereas nakitas gift the grandparent of sophies gift tastes nothing like kaki. @39thparallel and i ate a bunch of nakitas gift which tasted like a really good american. Finally sophies gift is 4th generation or 12% kaki. I have not tasted Rosseyanka or sophies gift. Have not tasted any of those on your list. The person who might know @OckooMicrofarm who made the video might have tasted these. @SMC_zone6 has been pretty busy but may have tried these also. @tonyOmahaz5 and Cliff might have tried them.
Zima khurma (NB-02),
Kasandra,
Mikkusu kaki Hybrid (JT-02):
Rosseyanka,
Chuchupaka
I have been trying to grow kaki in Las Vegas, which is a good heat stress locale.
Two years in a row, I tried to grow Nikita’s Gift and Giombo, and in both years, they couldn’t make it through July, even with conditions as ideal as I could make them (multiple timed watering / misting events per day, deep mulch, etc). They would start to look noticeably affected once temps hit 105, with growth ceasing, and once we started getting strings of days at 115, they just burned up.
I have a Fuyu that is clinging on gamely to life – it hasn’t been able to get over 8 feet tall – and it gets pretty well crisped in July every year, although it managed to produce a few fruit this year.
The exception is Saijo. It seems to almost like the heat, and is growing rapidly. It tends to stop growing by the middle of summer, but its leaves stay glossy and healthy-looking, and once the temperature decreases, growth picks back up.
Just as a point of comparison, my jujubes seem to be much more heat-loving than my persimmons. I also have fruit trees in Georgia, and the persimmons there are doing much better than the Vegas persimmons, but the Vegas jujubes look like they are years ahead of the Georgia jujubes.
Thanks for sharing your experience which reminded me to mention something. I have a “dry” climate, but nothing compared to Vegas. Most of my persimmon success has been from seed started trees. However, even there, as small seedlings, my best success has been on more rich soils where the ground can hold some moisture. There have been some locations where they really struggled (and didn’t survive) despite how much I watered them. Also, the baby seedlings, I’ve protected with 2’ trees tubes. Without those, 100F+ with very low humidity (sometimes very windy), and they would burn up. Once they grew above the tubes, they were fine. That was with straight D.V.