That sums it up exactly for many of us northern zone 4-5 folks.
2 Likes
Yes. Picking in November then ripening indoors worked for him.
1 Like
Hmmm, curious. That might be reason enough to try it. It sounds like hardiness is a problem for NG. Rosseyanka, as mentioned above is supposed to be hardier (mine has been through -18 without a hiccup) but far later
1 Like
Thatās why I currently grow N.G. in a 25 gallon pot. Itās kind of silly, but I just really like to try it after hearing so many rave reviews on the flavor. Maybe in a few years I can back cross it to some hardier hybrid. It is coming up on the third summer, and itās about three and a half feet tall.
3 Likes
Im curious to hear how it does for you. I never seriously considered doing persimmons on pots until seeing the production on @mamuangās kakis in central MA. I do need some more trees. At least it seems that way now 
!
2 Likes
I assume many of us have already seen Timothy Laneās outstanding presentation from the 2023 NAFEX meeting, but if not here are some notes I took with regards to cold-hardiness:
Zima Khurma/NB-02: Cold hardier than parents, survived -15āF
Kassandra: Survived a -16āF, wood ripening may be a concern up here
Dr. Kazas: Hardy to at least -15āF
Gora Rogers: Early ripening wood, hardy to -11āF or -13āF but may be hardier
Gora Roman Kosh: Early ripening wood, hardy to -16āF (briefly)
Gora Goverla: Less hardy than Rogers or Roman Kosh
Adolf Lischuck: Survived a -18āF for brief periods
Bozhy Dar/Godās Gift/UKR-15-30: Cord hardiness at least -12ā F to -14āF
Pamyati Chernyaeva/Chernyaevās Memory: Less cold hardy than others; -8āF or -10āF
Chuchupaka Tāocucupaka: Very cold-hardy; below -16āF
Whopper: Hardy to at least -16āF
Iām sitting right on the edge of 5a/5b in the updated map, but of course an average mean minimum of -15āF means that weāre going to hit a -20āF about 25% of years and a -25āF probably something like 10% of years. Iāve never entirely understood where different nurseries get their hardiness estimates from, but itās tough for me to reconcile claims that NB is z6 hardy with the reality that a z6a is hitting -15āF every few yearsā¦
That said, it seems like many of these may be genuine outside options in a decent z6a spot, and perhaps weāll even learn a few of them can survive in places like Omaha, Vermont, and SW Wisconsin. I figure Iāll try a few as potted specimens and test a few outside over the coming years, because if the flavor is as good as advertised itās worth a gamble.
7 Likes
Iām going cautious i think for a few years on the hybrids. Iām really wanting to see -25F numbers. Some can do it i think.
4 Likes
@driftless here are my thoughts.
For 6a i think JT-02 is the #1 safest option. Tony had success with it but eventually heavy losses at Omaha, you might want some americans like Prok or Geneva Long in those borderline locations.
Also, i read of a eastern european test that Pamjat Pasenkova is hardier than any of the Gora series which were all killed in that test, but Pamjat Pasenkova did fine i would trust it in 2012 6b maybe into 6a, though JT-02, JBT-06, and NB-02 when established are what i would prefer first in 6a.
Never believe those nurseries when they say "zone 6 hardy for kaki and nikitas gift etcā¦
3 Likes
Can you ripen a hybrid in time? That is the big question.
From May 1 - Oct 31, 2023, I had just over 3921 GDD according to:
https://www.greencastonline.com/growing-degree-days/home
Persimmon grow fast here. According to that site, I had only 29 days over 100F this summer (4 in Sept). JT-02 in full sun struggled to ripen (two 24F freezes in Oct didnāt help), and I ultimately had to pick and finish ripening inside. Your mileage may vary, but maybe some of you in the north country with lower heat units might find that useful.
I should get a better weather station for my house, but prioritiesā¦ 
4 Likes
yeah, suffice to say I had several fewer than you.
4 Likes
Iād think the 100āF+ days cause more harm than benefit? Iām pretty sure we get a similar number of GDD in a typical year here (SW WI) to much of Ukraine, and I presume S Nebraska probably gets more. Iām not sure how consistent ripening has been for folks with trees in the ground in MA. That said, while Iām cautiously optimistic on ripening them in pots or perhaps under a high tunnel, any trees I plant outside are really just experimental.
2 Likes
where are you located?
do you have āMohlerā? If not, you should get it. It ripens here starting the end of August some years. It finishes up late Sept. If theres one to grow in the north, IMO, its it.
1 Like
Iām just west of Madison, WI ā so when I say experimental Iām really referring to hybrids as itās not that difficult to ripen earlier cultivars of d. Virginiana.
I did put in a grafted Mohler last year but it died back to the rootstock over the summer. But I figure Iāll try that one again since it gets such great reviews.
1 Like
I donāt know. I know some plants shut down at higher temps, but persimmon seem to grow like crazy all summer in the heat. Iāve never noticed any negatives with heat with them. I suppose as long as they have the moisture that they need. Maybe heat for growing wood, and heat for ripening fruit are two completely different things.
Iām not sure how Ukraine is. I assume their hybrids are growing in the milder part of the country where they donāt get any early hard freezes that I might experience.
thats right. I remember now.
sure. thats why I think targeting early ripening cultivars is so important. Dar Sofiyevki and Journey seem like our best hopes for a good reliable hybrid in the north. Ive yet to hear much feedback on Journey, though it sounds like it could be quote early. Cliffās page says its his earliest, but he also lists Mohler and I find it hard to believe itd be earlier still. Anyone have pics, data or feedback about āJourneyā? For as good as it sounds it doesnāt seem to be that popular! Sosnovskaya is reasonably early too. Ive heard varying accounts of JT-02 ripening time. Im hopeful that it may ripen some years and that it can be ripened on the counter in off years. Kasandra seems like a maybe too.
Asian persimmons tend to grow at altitude, avoiding hottest temperatures. American persimmons seem to be a temperate zone species as well. Iād guess that neither one really wants high heat.
All C3 plants experience stress and reduced photosynthesis at temps above 85 or so, from what I understand. Total top of the head info, so maybe fuzzy. C4 plants, corn, sorghumā¦ are the ones that thrive in 100 degree heat
1 Like
I really have no idea ā I suspect somebody will have a better sense of this in the next decade or so. Just poking around, Iām not really sure where the most recent generation were bred and tested ā my understanding from the other thread on Dar Sofiyivki (Hybrid persimmon Dar Sofiyivky - #39 by jcguarneri) that much of the work was done around Kherson, which at first glance seems similar to somewhere like central Indiana. However, there seems to be some confusion about how much further north itās been growing. If I remember correctly, @Harbin is in Brno, CZ and has shown some pretty impressive harvests.
Not sure. I havenāt seen anything that looks like heat stress on persimmon even with the worst of heat. They seem to thrive on it including JT-02. Just happy and growing fast. Maybe not as fast as corn, but pretty darn good. Issues like high soil ph in some locations are the only issues Iāve ever had.
2 Likes
So long as they have adequate water, most trees are fine with high temps. Problems occur when water is limited as C3 plants have large stomata and emit high volumes of water vapor in high heat. CAM photosynthesis is a mechanism developed by plants often stressed by both high temps and limited water. CAM plants close stomata and limit photosynthesis in high temps.
2 Likes