Kansas has both high heat, severe wind, and drought as part of regular weather. American persimmon and lotus grow well in somewhat protected areas here. Most of my persimmons i grow on the south side of a man made hill along on the water of my large pond. A single rain gives them 3 times or more the water since they are downhill as other plants. Leaf tatter is avoided by blocking the wind by hills or other trees. Kaki x american Hybrids will be harder if not impossible to grow here. Many hybrids sre now only 12% kaki like sophies gift. Since it is 4th generation it might have a chance. Iām focusing most on what i know works for the moment. Once i address my needs of american persimmons for food then i will look at my wants of the hybrids. Iām learning all i can about hybrids now. These hybrid persimmons look excellent and iām very interested in them. I might plant a couple as tests this year. Iām impressed with their reportedly large size and sweet taste. Iām looking forward to trying them. Iām going to change gears to hybrids as soon as i take care of the american persimmon project.
@PaulinKansas6b ā
Thanks! Iām really focusing on improved American cultivars in outside unprotected locations ā next year Iām going to try and graft/bud Early Golden, H63A, Prok, Yates, Mohler, and Barbaraās Blush to go along with my Szukis I put in last year.
JT-02 is on my short list for a potted plant because Iāve read itās somewhat slow growing but also precocious.
Does anyone on this forum know of a nursery that sells JT-02 persimmon trees? I think this cultivar would be a good match for my garden in southwestern Massachusetts (Zone 6A on the 2023 USDA Zones of Hardiness map. Any suggestions about other hybrid persimmons I might try would also be appreciated.
That one might possibly be too late for you in WI, but it has otherwise been one of the most cold hardy for me in terms of avoiding winter tip burn that many other varieties can experience. -30F didnāt affect even the young wood if I can recall correctly. Several WS8-10 were the least damaged of all varieties.
@TAC_MA ā I donāt. Thatās why I grafted my own. Would you consider that route? Youād have to buy some DV seedling trees, acquire some scions from JT-02, then graft the scions to the rootstock trees. Itās very doable ā and very liberating.
I used to graft apples when I got interested in heirloom apples a long time ago. What rootstocks are recommended for hybrid persimmons? D. virginiana?
Yeah, in this part of the country we use D. Virginiana because it is cold hardy. D. Lotus is more common in CA and Asia.
These persimmon trees can be very hard to come by. Iāve never seen the trees for sale for more than a short while before they are sold out.
Not sure if i asked in another thread, but do any of these hybrids have American flavor? My Saiju asian persimmon puts out 800 fruit, its sweet and Iāve grown to respect that I can pick it unripe and not lose fruit to the animals (cause they hate eating it hard and astringent so i may only lose 30 fruit out of 800 to squirrels, and half of those i can cut off where they bit and dehydrate them to save the fruit). But the flavor doesnāt wow me over like an American persimmon.
Do any of these hybrids have that complex flavor, whether it be caramel/rum/butterscotch/apricot or some thing else? I will definitely graft a few this spring that Im getting from Cliff(and figbid), but curious about the flavor which will influence if iāll graft them onto my trees or to give away to friends to trial out.
PS the specific varieties im getting are:
Zima khurma (NB-02),
Kasandra,
Mikkusu kaki Hybrid (JT-02):
Rosseyanka,
Chuchupaka
This video is worth watching from above
The reason i bring it up is because he discussed Rosseyanka being the original cross of kaki x american so it is 50% kaki whereas nakitas gift the grandparent of sophies gift tastes nothing like kaki. @39thparallel and i ate a bunch of nakitas gift which tasted like a really good american. Finally sophies gift is 4th generation or 12% kaki. I have not tasted Rosseyanka or sophies gift. Have not tasted any of those on your list. The person who might know @OckooMicrofarm who made the video might have tasted these. @SMC_zone6 has been pretty busy but may have tried these also. @tonyOmahaz5 and Cliff might have tried them.
Zima khurma (NB-02),
Kasandra,
Mikkusu kaki Hybrid (JT-02):
Rosseyanka,
Chuchupaka
I have been trying to grow kaki in Las Vegas, which is a good heat stress locale.
Two years in a row, I tried to grow Nikitaās Gift and Giombo, and in both years, they couldnāt make it through July, even with conditions as ideal as I could make them (multiple timed watering / misting events per day, deep mulch, etc). They would start to look noticeably affected once temps hit 105, with growth ceasing, and once we started getting strings of days at 115, they just burned up.
I have a Fuyu that is clinging on gamely to life ā it hasnāt been able to get over 8 feet tall ā and it gets pretty well crisped in July every year, although it managed to produce a few fruit this year.
The exception is Saijo. It seems to almost like the heat, and is growing rapidly. It tends to stop growing by the middle of summer, but its leaves stay glossy and healthy-looking, and once the temperature decreases, growth picks back up.
Just as a point of comparison, my jujubes seem to be much more heat-loving than my persimmons. I also have fruit trees in Georgia, and the persimmons there are doing much better than the Vegas persimmons, but the Vegas jujubes look like they are years ahead of the Georgia jujubes.
Thanks for sharing your experience which reminded me to mention something. I have a ādryā climate, but nothing compared to Vegas. Most of my persimmon success has been from seed started trees. However, even there, as small seedlings, my best success has been on more rich soils where the ground can hold some moisture. There have been some locations where they really struggled (and didnāt survive) despite how much I watered them. Also, the baby seedlings, Iāve protected with 2ā trees tubes. Without those, 100F+ with very low humidity (sometimes very windy), and they would burn up. Once they grew above the tubes, they were fine. That was with straight D.V.
Does anybody know more about parentage of Russian Beauty? Iāve seen it as Roseeyanka x d Virginiana but havenāt seen it discussed a whole lot.
Apparently it (as well as Meader, though thatās not much surprise) survived a -31.6F at Carandale farm. Unfortunately their uncommon fruit page hasnt been updated in a decade, Iāll maybe check on this if Iām out there this spring.
Itās Nikitaās Gift backcrossed to kaki twice, correct? That makes it ~6.25% virginiana and ~93.75% kaki.
Im not sure offhand. if so thatās remarkable its hardy, early, etc.
Iām watching this now. That reminds me I had a question about what āembryo rescueā means. So they cross the flowers, they get seeds in the resulting fruit from the female-receiving specimen, they take the seed out of the fruit andddddā¦ ???
its not very viable soooo, they need to ______ ???
I donāt see it.
- Rosseyanka (Kaki x DV) is the great-grandmother (50% DK, 50% DV).
- Nikitaās Gift (Kaki x Rossey2 Male) is grandmother (75% DK, 25% DV).
- Then there is another cross. The podcaster doesnāt say what. But if the parent is DK, then Sophieās Gift would be 87.5% DK, 12.5% DV.
Do we know the parent? Assuming Kaki, then I agree it is remarkable if Sophieās Gift is hardy to -20 F, as reported.
Embryo rescue is describes here
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0304423805003298
"# Fruit set and embryo rescue in crosses using parthenocarpic āMopanshiā persimmon
Author links open overlay panelP. Leng a, H. Yamamura b
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Abstract
The āMopanshiā persimmon is a seedless, astringent parthenocarpic cultivar that does not produce male flowers. After pollination using four non-astringent cultivars (āZenjimaruā, āNishimurawaseā, āOkugoshoā and āHanagoshoā), seeds were produced to different degrees. āMopanshiā fruits pollinated with āZenjimaruā produced far more seeds than those pollinated with the other three cultivars. The ratio of abnormal seeds obtained from the fruits pollinated with āHanagoshoā was higher than that obtained from the fruits pollinated with the other three cultivars. Most embryos degenerated in the early to late stages of seed development. Immature embryos were cultured in a modified MS medium (half of NO3 in MS medium + 0.4 Ī¼M BA + 0.1 Ī¼M IBA) with the greatest success (52ā80%) from embryos taken from fruits 60ā80 days after pollination. Seedlings failed to initiate radicles so they were transferred to dark culture conditions for 8 days or to a rooting media that contained 3% sucrose and 1% Chinese ink. The seedlings on the medium darkened with ink rooted at greater than 90.83% compared to 75.83% for dark cultured seedlings. This study demonstrated that āMopanshiā persimmon could be used as a female parent in crosses, but embryos needed to be moved to tissue culture conditions to continue to develop and form plantlets.
Introduction
The persimmon (Diospyros kaki L. āMopanshiā) originated in the Yangtze River valley. It has become the main cultivar in north China due to its superior quality, high production, frost hardiness and drought resistance. It is also the most prevalent astringent cultivar in China. This cultivar does not have male flowers and the fruits of it are large: the average weight is 250 g and a large fruit can be up to 450 g. It is an outstanding female parent source in the general cross-breeding of persimmon. During recent years, we have introduced some excellent non-astringent cultivars from Japan. But in north of China, these cultivars have got some problems such as they cannot become completely non-astringent during the ripening stage, their low temperature adaptabilities are poor and so on. So it is our aim through breeding to solve the problems of cultivar simplification and ripening periods concentricity. Hybridizing non-astringent cultivars with āMopanshiā persimmon as female parent could yield new cultivars of non-astringent or astringent persimmon with early ripening, large size fruit of superior quality and good resistance to frost and drought. Because of its parthenocarpic capacity, this cultivar can only be used as a female parent, but according to the discovery in the recent yearsā cross-breeding practice, the high percentage of abnormal seeds during the growth of its hybrid seriously hampered the development of the research in cross-breeding.
The technique of embryo rescue could rescue abortive embryos to obtain hybrid seedlings (Bridgen, 1994, Iwamoto, 2001). The objectives of current study were to investigate embryo development in āMopanshiā persimmon pollinated by different non-astringent cultivars. The timing and conditions for embryo rescue in abortive seeds were also investigated.
Section snippets
Pollen source and pollination method
Fifteen āMopanshiā persimmon trees at a highly productive age planted at China Agricultural University were used. Pollen of āZenjimaruā and āNishimurawaseā was from the Research Institute of Pomology, Northwest Agriculture Technology University, and pollen of āOkugoshoā and āHanagoshoā was from the China Agricultural University.
The flowering period of āMopanshiā was from May 14 to May 21 in 2003. Style abscission began on May 21. Because the fluorescence of the pollinated variety was 7ā10 days
Effect of pollination on fruit growth and seed set of āMopanshiā persimmon
There were no differences in growth between non-pollinated controls and pollinated āMopanshiā fruits. The average weight of fruits pollinated with āZenjimaruā, āNishimurawaseā, āOkugoshoā and āHanagoshoā and harvested on October 10 were 230.0, 236.3, 228.4 and 231.1 g, respectively, compared to 232.1 g in non-pollinated control fruit (Fig. 1).
No seeds formed in the āMopanshiā fruits without pollination, but seeds did form in pollinated fruits (Table 1). The number of seeds per fruit was different
Discussion
āMopanshiā persimmon shows strong parthenocarpy and seeds are rarely produced. However, āMopanshiā could produce seeds after pollination with non-astringent persimmon pollen, but most of the seeds degenerated in the early or late growth stage. The degree of zygote embryo abortion in āMopanshiā was affected by the pollen parent. This appears to be correlated with the pollen parentās ability to set seed (personal observation). There are numerous reasons for embryo degeneration (Kitajima et al.,
Acknowledgement
The paper has been supported by Beijing Natural Science Foundation (6052013).
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References (13)
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There is absolutely nothing in this video that implies anything about the percentage of kaki in Sophies Gift. He only states that Nikitaās Gift is the grandparent and embryo rescue was used. According to @Harbin, āŠŠ¾Š»Š³Š¾ŃŠæŠ½ŠøŃŃ is a mother parent of Dar Sofiyivkyā¦ ŠŠ¾Š»Š³Š¾ŃŠæŠ½ŠøŃŃ is a direct offspring from Nikitaās Gift backcrossed with monoecious kakiā.
The seeds produced by ŠŠ¾Š»Š³Š¾ŃŠæŠ½ŠøŃŃ were underdeveloped, so embryo rescue was used to recover viable seedlings. The pollen parent of SG is unknown, as it was open pollinated. I have read that it was also kaki, but even if it was a pure virginiana, SG would still be >40% kaki. I think it is possible that the pollen parent was also a hybrid that added a little more D.v. hardiness into the mix, but until genetic markers are developed to sort it out, we really donāt know.