I didn’t explain it well, you don’t, it’s just good etiquette between breeders.
Here is a good article about hybridizing plums. It goes into reasons why people outside California should not depend on the Zaiger/Dave Wilson programs. Im not saying there is anything wrong with those programs, but their prodicts grow in an entirely different climate from many of us and can lead to much lost money and disappointment. You cant grow a mango in Maine and ther are many California hybrids that wont grow in Pacific NW, Southeast, Midwest, or Northeast. I’ve learned that lesson repeatedly.
Unfortunately, there are few breeding programs for local climates. especially stone fruits. We often dont need super-sized, hard fruits that can ship 1000s of miles to your Safeway produce aisle, or trees that respond to commercial orchard practices. If you get a few dozen of a tender juicy highly flavored friut from your own tree, that’s wonderful. Very few programs are breeding for that, and even Universities are into club programs after seeing how Moneycrisp did for acouple decades.
Given the relatively limited information and limited number of varieties, the home hobbyist can putter with what he finds, and see what happens. Im all for that.
I read recently that Methley plum is a hybrid between P. salicina and P. cerasifera. Methley is an excellent plum, so is an example of what can be achieved.
http://www.nyshs.org/pdf/fq/2006-Volume-14/Vol-14-No-1/Introgression-of-Prunus-Species-in-Plum.pdf
what do you do if they say No? Or is it a given that they’ll be encouraging of your efforts?
Well as you pointed out, you can do it with no repercussions, so the latter option is most likely. I would say it is more a formality as patents on cultivars is a rather new trend.
Thanks for that, very interesting. I would love to work on breeding stone fruits, but as a private breeder lack resources, funding and time. 1 in 7000 are useful? It seems breeding plums is a rather complex endeavor!
My effort on breeding peaches is more to produce a fruit I would like, and that would ripen in-between cultivars I like and already have. And maybe to produce a more cold hardy peach that has exceptional flavor. Unlikely to succeed in the latter, but have some ideas all the same that might be worth pursuing.
As I learn more my chances become better so thanks for the information, very insightful. My main focus in breeding is brambles and I’ll probably stick with them as I have a lot of local examples to work with that can achieve results I’m looking for in the fruit. Putter is a good word for this, all I’m doing, I don’t expect much, it’s just fun to do and keeps me out of trouble.
I have thought of crossing Carmine Jewel (Prunus cerasus x P. fruiticosa) with Indian Free white peach.
The problem is they don’t have the same ploidy level. Treating terminal branches of Indian Free with Colchicine will induce the cells to change from diploid to tetraploid and the flowers from these terminal branches should produce tetraploid pollen and ovaries. It looks like this will definitely work!
I also found a source to purchase Colchicine for plant use.
The stuff is extremely dangerous though. Any extra I would soak peach pits in just to mutate them and see what the heck you get! Some bizarre stuff I bet! It might be sterile though!
The goal of this cross would be to produce a peach that is extremely winter hardy. Using Indian Free as the pollen receiver would also let me know if the cross took, as it is not self fertile. But going both ways would be wise or at least interesting.
Many uncertainties here. Like will it change to tetraploid in the spring? Or do i need to treat buds in the fall and use them the next spring? Will already formed buds convert? It seems to me treating new growth in the summer and fall for use the next spring is probably the way to go.
Also this stuff is extremely poisonous so you definitely cannot eat the fruit from this cross. Well the first fruit, the fruit from the cross. Any fruit from the offspring is perfectly safe (and will take years to produce).
I guess Colchicine is used to produce seedless watermelons.
“Useful” depends on what you’re looking for. I attended a talk by a small-scale apple grower (apples being notoriously untrue to seed), and he basically said you shouldn’t worry about those odds.Commercial growers have a lot of factors to deal with that we don’t (transportability being the biggest). He said that from his experience, he gets an apple tree with “interesting” fruit from 1/10 seedlings. It may not be commercially viable, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t worth growing in your yard.
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It seems with plums chances are worse. At least according to the article Bear with me posted. And the problems were small fruit size, limited production, and poor growth. Major problems. It makes me think to stay away from breeding plums. Interesting the article pointed out that many pluots actually have not cot in them on a DNA level. Probably the crosses they thought they were making were self crosses in reality.
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this is really an interesting thread! You can always learn so much here. I did a little hand pollinating on some pumpkins I grew last year so I understand the concept. I guess understanding what can be crossed with what else is where I kind of get lost. I have a peach root stock that i allowed to sprout out below the graft and saved a batch of seeds from to plant this spring. If I had hand pollinated some of the flowers with my Nanking cherries is it possible i could have crossed?
It depends if they have different ploidy levels? I don’t know? They need to be the same to cross. Many of the so-called cherries are not really cherries but plums, so my guess is yes. Even if different ploidy levels, a cross sometimes happens anyway, that would be luck, and rare but not impossible, Why it is possible is that they are all in the genus Prunus. Apples are in the genus Malus so you could not cross with an apple. Too distant to work. Sometimes a closely related genus can cross with another genus. Rubus is the genus of brambles. Blackberries and raspberries, so they can cross too. Such as Boysenberries, tayberries and other raspberry-blackberry hybrids. I really like these crosses. Tayberries are excellent! I have a few of these hybrids, the above mentioned, and also wyeberries, which are like bigger boysenberries. They look almost identical. Out of these crosses Marionberry is the best tasting to me. Many so called blackberries have raspberry in them. Much like plums or blueberries a lot of crosses were used. New Berry has around 32 other cultivars in it’s lineage. I’ll get to taste one next year!
Very good information. Thanks for the detail drew.
The Zaigers use plums as the seed parents, and plumcots as the pollen parent. That could explain why some pluots dont have apricot in their parentage? The flowers were probably contaminated with plum pollen, instead of been pollinated by the plumcot?
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^ That’s how the first pluots were created, the latests pluots are crosses between plumcots, pluots, apricots, and some even with peaches, cherries, and nectarines.
Well that is what i was saying only saying contaminated with it’s own pollen. You can emasculate the flower, but a tree has flowers all over it!
tjasko,
I agree with you. Breeding yourself, size is less important, shipping qualities are not at all important. Disease resistance, flowering at a good time, probably do matter more. What is important to me is using parent tree varieties that are well suitable for my area, to get a better chance at locally adapted progeny. If the fruit is too soft to ship long distance, it doesn’t matter. It should be big enough to matter, but doesn’t have to be huge. Good flavor matters a lot.
If I grow a Zaiger / Dave Wilson variety, the chances of a useable fruit tree are low. I think I’ve had 1 out of 6 do well so far, and that one is in container and did lousy in ground. For In-Ground, so far it’s zero out of 6. That’s because they are not breeding for my climate, nor should they. In the Zaiger one out of thousands, there might be hundreds of good varieties, but not qualities they are looking for. This does not bode well for the sweet treat pluerry I planted, but I’m a susceptible to novelty as the next guy.
Low production is not necessarily a negative. My stone fruits usually need extensive thinning, I’ve had broken branches and small fruits from too many fruit set. No production, or almost no production, of course, is a problem.
If I cross two local parents that do well here, I don’t know the chances of a good tree, but I suspect better than the 1 out of 6.
I think these breeding efforts will result in lots of useful fruits if your standards aren’t too high. But really the chances of something better than the currently best available fruits are very low. If it were so easy the improved varieties would already be in place.
I guess that depends on your definition of “a good tree”. If different is good then it will be easy.
I’m growing out some chance seedlings from my greenhouse. I don’t know the male parent but do know it’s no loser. I’ll be happy with a different looking fruit that tastes good but not great. There aren’t many Flavor Supreme or Flavor Kings for a good reason. Zaiger has 250,000 seedlings and very few good new fruit for the home grower. Certainly no FS or FK quality fruits recently that I’ve tried.
My experience says if you want highest quality fruit grow the FS and FK types in a pot with protection from freezes and pests. Then depend on good culture to improve fruit quality. Genetics only goes so far. Culture is half the game.
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Well some Zaiger trees do well here. Such as Arctic Glo which is sold here by local nurseries, Grandpa’s, Adams. and Van Well as Alan mentioned to me he bought a few from them. Flavor King Pluot made it through -16F and fruited here, seems plenty hardy enough. The fruit was top rate too. The Spice Zee nectaplum made it, but the fruit was rather bland. I’m going to top work most of it.
Here we have the Canadian peaches and the PF or Paul Friday peaches. Both offer some good cultivars. I would like to point out that Dave Wilson distributes Zaiger, but they also sell a lot of heirloom fruit trees too.
Have you tried to make any interspecific crosses between peaches and plums; or peaches and apricots?
A question for all the members:
If a release my interspecifics for the home grower, what traits would you like to see in them?
In order to prevent that issue, I will use the plumcot(s) as the seed parent, and the plum as the pollen parent, for example.
I would agree with that. First one has to have a goal in mind. Mine is not to improve fruit quality. I think too Zaiger at this point is rather lost. As mentioned I would like a good peach that develops late mid season. One of my goals. Another is to increase winter hardiness of peaches by introducing genes from tart cherries. This is going to require drugs to accomplish. I doubt I will try anytime soon. Although I may try in a few years. Yeah this coming year I have a number of non garden related projects I have to complete. Time for gardening is going to be greatly cut down for a year. Let alone experiments in the garden. I will grow out current experiments to see if I have anything, but otherwise time in the garden will be limited. Sucks, but I have to earn a living, and maintain my properties. Both need attention.
Larger fruit size, more disease resistance, and longer shelf life
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