I received some interesting information about apples today from a reliable, trusted source. I have not seen most of this published before:
Bud9 is a lot more vigorous in a cooler climate than in a warm climate, not so for M9
Bud9 runts out much easier than M9 and should be very lightly cropped for first 2 years
Bud9 contains a gene that provides some basic fire blight protection to the scion. Geneva rootstocks have better fire blight immunity, but do not provide this gene for FB protection to the scion
Bud9 offers better return bloom after a big crop which helps reduce biannual production tendency
Geneva rootstocks perform well in re-plant situations. Bud9 rootstocks do not
Pink Lady is normally the first apple to bloom in the orchard and the last apple to quit blooming. This long bloom time provides more chance for fireblight infections to take place
.
It should also mean that it’s a great pollinator in an orchard with a limited number of varieties. Also that it is more likely to set fruit than others in adverse spring weather.
I dont see how this could be true. scions do not “inherit genes” from rootstocks. While rootstocks and scions are physically joined they act as separate systems.
Its beyond my level of knowledge, but that is how it was explained to me. I don’t understand the mechanism involved, but I’m pretty confident the guy knows what he is talking about. He may have reduced the level of the science to aid in my understanding, but the bottom line was scions on B9 have a greater degree of immunity to FB than scions on Geneva, although the Geneva rootstock has more FB immunity than the B9 rootstock
I suppose it is possible a rootstock could confer some sort of circulating innate immunity not found in the scion such as iron binding that could travel up the xylem and inhibit FB. I think however when something extraordinary is claimed it is incumbent upon the person saying it to produce the evidence.
I see that you are a retired scientist, so I understand your desire for scientific evidence to support the conclusions.
I got the information from a senior level employee of a very large fruit tree nursery, not a scientist or researcher so its offered on a “believe it or not” basis.
I’m not sure how the conclusions were developed. I expect observation of lots of orchards over many years combined with discussions with researches and growers over many years were important factors.
The information interested me because some of it conflicts with the “conventional wisdom.” For example, the idea that Bud9 should be very lightly cropped the first two years conflicts with the Cornell Tall Spindle model which promotes the idea of early fruit production as an economic benefit. Their “Young Apple Thinning Gage” indicates a 1 inch caliper tree is is capable of producing 30 apples on a variety like Gala or Empire. That is too many for a B9 tree based on this information.
A nurseryman is not going to want you to crop a tree early unless it’s a sure thing it’s ready. Early cropping requires trees that come from the nursery with useable scaffolds and nurseries often cannot (or don’t) supply that. The universities tend to promote the production systems they have done research on and would likely be optimistic about early production. Just my own hunches based on a certain amount of experience dealing with both types of info. You take it all with a grain of salt.
That’s some good advice Alan. You have decades of experience with tree fruit, so it may be easier for you to see through all the smoke. It’s tough for rookie like me because just about every source of information on commercial apple production has a financial incentive to promote their point of view.
I’m doing everything possible to accelerate my knowledge and see through the smoke. It’s been an expensive education and I’m 2 years behind schedule. If I had the chance to start my Apple orchard from scratch, I would change many things. The good news is that a lot of my berry customers are asking about Apples, so if I can manage to grow them, they will sell quickly and for a good price.
Wish there was some type of cookbook available to make everything easy. Just plant a cup this and a pint of that, apply so may pounds of fertilizer and water and presto – perfect apples!
It is always tough before you begin to have success. Especially if you are trying to do it differently than by way of commercial production specs. For the first five years I was growing fruit in the east I was almost constantly anxious about contradicting advice. A lot of the stuff I got from Cornell was pure crap. Like I could only safely prune in late winter or that you have to get weeds under control for a year before planting fruit trees, or that fall planting was dangerous for the survival of the trees. I also had to work out my own spray schedule. So many rules without explanation.
I didn’t really begin to feel solidly confident until I’d been at this for 15 years- and some days I still feel like I don’t know what I’m doing. This year I got a lot of corking on the apple crop in my own orchard for the first time after about 20 years of cropping. If I was selling the fruit it would have been a disaster. But how weird is it that I manage about 100 orchards and the one with the worst apples were in the orchard that gets the most of my attention? Not exactly a confidence booster. Fortunately all the other species did great this year in my orchard and I have plenty of sound and pretty apples of my favorite varieties from other orchards I manage. It was a year of a lot of surplus.
I’m 62, so I don’t have that much time to figure it out. I need to get my apples into production while I am still young enough to enjoy them!
I moved from 6 trees I purchased from Lowes and cropped for a dozen years to 600 B9 trees a few years ago. It was a pretty big step with a steep learning curve, especially since I am not in an apple growing region. I’m learning a lot from the folks on this forum and I have collected a ton of information from well regarded sources, much of which conflicts with each other. Even had the PHD tree fruit specialist from NC State here a few times which was helpful. Trial and error produces good results, but it takes too much time and cost too much money.
I have learned that it requires a lot more knowledge to grow dwarf trees compared with semi dwarf trees. Lacking that knowledge I may have been able to get dwarf trees into production almost as soon as my B9 trees and saved a bunch of money.
I attached a video showing the Cornell Apple Thinning Template that I spoke about earlier.
You don’t have to feel confident to achieve adequate competence to manage trees for fruit affectively. The confidence starts to come after a few years of success. With free standing apple trees in an unirrigated orchard it takes about 7 years for trees to even come into real production- except for particularly precocious varieties that are usually pretty grower friendly anyway
I wouldn’t call that a big step. I’d consider it more along the line of jet propelling yourself into an adventure in unfamiliar territory. You’re keeping both mind and body sharp. That’s a payoff in itself. Hopefully, the exercise your wallet gets early on in this adventure will also eventually leave it in good condition, too.
Its has been a great adventure, mostly positive. Your right about the velocity which sometimes gets a little turbulent. It can be very energizing, especially when things work as planned. After the fireblight epidemic two years ago it looked like the orchard was destroyed, I “crashed and burned” for a while, but came back stronger and more committed than ever.
We are more prepared to manage the fireblight now, so the next major problem will be something we have never considered.
I hadn’t thought of a boron problem- at the orchards I manage I include it in my standard maintenance, but not in my own orchard so the idea was interesting. However, upon looking the matter up, the symptoms indicate a calcium issue and not boron deficiency. The corking is all external.
Thank you for the suggestion. I wasn’t even aware of boron corking.
