I find my Rosseyanka has the same wispy herbicide damaged look this year, last year as well. I read somewhere last year this is a feature of this cultivar with early growth. Sure enough, she straightened herself out as the season progressed.
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Good to know…perhaps I’ve just not looked before, but this Rosseyanka tree was grafted around 1998, with scions from Jerry Lehman, and I don’t ever recall the foliage looking like this.
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Sorry to jump in. I had thought that the common Japanese persimmon only needs to become fully ripe to loose its astringency, whereas the mutant ‘non-astringent’ one is edible even when not fully ripe. Is that not so? I have eaten the older non-mutant types dry (which is the most common way to eat them I think) and also fresh. Personally I think I enjoyed them more than the non-astringent ones, though I never ate one of those when it was so ripe as the astringent ones are when eaten, nice and soft and juicy! The non-astringent ones I’ve tended to encounter when they are quite firm, somewhat (or sometimes too much) under-ripe.
For me the astringent type is also attractive since as well as being delicious when ripe; it can be used to make kakishibu, a very useful substance. I know in modern capitalist culture that probably has very little value, but I’d be surprised if it couldn’t get the permacuture and other such movements excited!
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@Justin – Where did I write this? It sounds like I was quoting someone else.
Anyway, I believe that you are basically right – the common Japanese persimmon (usually) only needs to become fully ripe. But two caveats: (1) As I understand it, some varieties and/or some growing conditions produce fruit that may have some residual astringency even when fully ripe. [That was true for my Kassandra hybrid last year – fruit could get squishy, gooey, rotten ripe and might still be astringent. I ended up giving all the fruit a “bath” in alcohol vapor.] And (2) “fully ripe” generally means gooey, squishy ripe – a texture that many people don’t like. So for some consumers, a fully ripe persimmon (like a fully ripe banana) is not a desirable option.
One practical problem is that fully ripe (gooey soft) persimmons won’t ship well. Growers who ship not-quite-ripe (inedible) fruit rely on the consumer to ripen the fruit, which is unreliable especially when the consumer doesn’t like gooey. Those consumers will eat still-astringent fruit, then never buy again.
To alleviate this shipping problem and to accommodate consumers who prefer a firmer fruit, many large commercial enterprises rely on artificial treatments, most commonly CO2.
You should try a non-astringent that is equally ripe, maybe then dehydrated somewhat. The fully ripe then partially dehydrated non-astringents that I ate last year were spectacular.
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If you use the up and down arrows on the top right side of my quote, you can see the context and the original comment.
Hmm yes, maybe so. Although I also wonder if consumers might be largely happy but transportation would be complicated. For example in modern tomatoes there has been breeding resulting in harder tomatoes that also store for longer before going bad, but taste much less good. Overall worse for the consumer but better for capitalism, hence they dominate the market. I don’t know how equivalent that is to the Japanese persimmon market but I at least really enjoy the older type. With tomatoes at least, this issue is avoided by buying tomatoes grown locally.
Oh and now that I read on, I see you also mention the shipping issue.
Yes I would not be surprised if I would also find them delicious. I just figured if I am to grow them myself, the older type would have that added benefit of being able to make kakishibu, which is a big bonus.
OK, yeah, I was just quoting the scientific article from the Chinese authors.
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interesting. I wonder why it said that…
I have just seen this on Wikipedia:
- PCA type: Pollination constant astringent. These kakis have a bitter taste until they become completely soft. The ripening process turns the tannin insoluble, after which all bitterness disappears and the sweet fruit can be enjoyed.
- PCNA type: Pollination constant non astringent, which is a relatively recent mutation in kaki fruit (a few centuries). In this type of kaki the tannin is always insoluble even when the fruit is still hard. This fruit will always taste sweet without any bitterness in the hard or soft stage.
- PVNA type: Pollination variant non astringent. This type of fruit has to become soft before it is edible except if it is seeded. A substance in the seed makes the tannin insoluble and thus the seeded fruit will be sweet even when it is still hard. Even one seed is usually sufficient to make the fruit edible. Fruit from the same tree that does not contain seed will taste bitter and needs to soften before it becomes edible.
- PVA type: Pollination variant astringent. This type of kaki is similar to the previous type but in this case only the flesh around the seeds will have no bitter taste. The rest of the fruit will taste bitter. This is due to a different process in tannin neutralization by the seeds. The result is that sometimes only half of the fruit (the part containing seeds) may be edible and the other half will be bitter if it contains no seeds.
Could it be that the common ‘astringent’ type grown in Japan is ‘PCA type’ but perhaps the ‘PVA type’ type is more common (perhaps in the wild?) in China?
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No. The most common wild type by far is PCA. Everything else is a mutation. Many popular varieties are PCA. Examples are Saiyo and Hachiya.
In Japan, one wild mutation led to the PCNA variant. This type has become very popular among consumers, commercial growers, and breeders. Examples are Fuyu and Jiro. In China, a different mutation led to another PCNA variant but it was only recently discovered and is not yet widespread. These mutations block the accumulation of tannins.
Also in Japan, a different wild mutation led to the PVA and PVNA types. Both of these involve the same mutation; PVNAs are just more homozygous versions of PVA. This mutation causes production of substances by the seeds that precipitate tannins. Examples are Maru and Chocolate.
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This is the more expansive and all encompassing explanation you might be interested in, right here in the reference section.
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Interesting. So I guess maybe the academic paper was just… wrong!?
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In fairness, I think it depends on how we define “fully ripe.” If we define ripe as gooey soft, then yes the paper is wrong. If we define ripe as sweet (not starchy) and flavorful but still at least a little firm, then the paper is right. Note that millions of PCA persimmons are shipped from Israel, South Africa, and Spain after treatment with CO2. These fruits are still somewhat firm, and they are delicious. It would not really be fair to say that they are not ripe. Defining ripe only as “soft enough to be non-astringent without treatment” seems tautological.
Think of bananas. Most of us eat firm bananas, even though bananas will get mushy ripe. We consider the firm bananas that we eat to be ripe, even though they are still firm. Of course, firm ripe bananas are not astringent. But if bananas happened to be astringent while firm, we wouldn’t (or shouldn’t) define them as unripe. The degree of ripeness is the same.
The same could be argued for pears. We pick pears while still firm and we consider them ripe. If they happened to be astringent, we wouldn’t consider them unripe.
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have you had a chance to make or use it @Justin. If so, I wonder what your impression is. I dont work with textiles, so that use isn’t particularly compelling. It sounds like it may be used to stain wood also, which has some appeal. Ive had requests for artificially aged wood from time to time, and it sounds like this might give something of that effect
Well, yeah I get what you mean. But when I read:
I think, hmm, really? Because they’ve been eaten for so many centuries without artificial treatment to remove the astringency, and are delicious, so for me that statement cannot be true.
And sure, it means the texture will not be the same as less ripe non-astringent types, but to me it’s one thing to say ‘non-astringent types have the added benefit of being edible while still firm’, but quite another to claim astringent types are categorically inedible without artificial treatment.
This also reminds me of mangoes. I loved eating mangoes in India. My usual way of eating them was to massage them so that the pulp becomes liquified, then bite the end and suck it out. A great trick for a clean way to eat them while on a bus journey or walking back from the market! However in the West, almost all the mangoes I have encountered in shops are what I would call unripe - very firm. And some that I have managed to massage, turned out to be extremely fibrous! I expect perhaps this has to do with commercial shipping priorities, but the result was highly disappointing in both taste and texture.
But after all it’s only a paper and I’m not that fussed about it 
I was just curious if I had misunderstood the world of persimmons. Thanks for clearing it up!
I have not made any but I have used it. I sprayed it onto traditional paper, for the beauty and to make it more water and insect resistance, for making book covers of some books I made. And yes it is also used for wood, valued for those same properties from what I understand. And for cloth. Also by the way, it darkens with increasing light exposure. As a wood treatment I would think it should be very nice in particular due to not being toxic. I believe it is used in treating exteriors of houses for example, in some cases at least.
I used it as a liquid. In the West I would think that is hard to come by, but you can buy powder and mix up a liquid from it. I would guess the original liquid might be superior but I do not know of any specific drawbacks of starting with powder, so I would suggest it should be well worth trying. If I were you, I would make some tests on various types of wood and perhaps cover some of each piece partially (perhaps with black tape or reflective material or something to completely block out light), then expose them to sunlight for prolonged periods (perhaps for months but at least weeks, especially in the Summer) so you can gauge what shades might finally result. And also have the covered areas as reference for how they would look after initial application, so you can see how much they would change.
You may also notice that initially there will be a smell that not everyone will appreciate, but that will dissipate. I can’t say how long that would take. Perhaps gone after a few days?
sounds like something to fool around with. Also makes me think about other ready sources of tannin, Then you can have your kakis and eat em too - acornshibu ? hemlock barkshibu? Brain tanning might not be the best for business. Talk about a lingering smell. Plus, it might attract zombies
Yeah I thought about that too. Though there might be some things about persimmon that is particularly advantageous for this.
This isn’t really true, though. Chinese people have been artificially treating persimmons for centuries. Soft, gooey-ripe persimmons might be delicious to you, but they aren’t eaten very much, at least in my experience in Japan and Taiwan. Firm, crunchy fruit is preferred over soft. In fact, most of my relatives prefer their peaches and pears crunchy. The majority of astringent persimmons in Asia are dried before eating, and those that aren’t have the tannins reduced through ethanol treatment or storage in anaerobic environments. The Taiwanese word for any non-astringent persimmon is literally “soaked persimmon,” since until PCNA cultivars were introduced during the Japanese occupation, the only way to get edible-when-firm persimmons was to artificially treat PCA cultivars.
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I think that the general US population has a preference against gooey fruits. Just like pawpaws, unless you grew up with them, it’s an acquired taste/texture thing. Much of the rest of the world DID grow up with a gooey persimmon as a seasonal treat, and I feel like I missed out by not having that opportunity personally. I’m providing it for my kids.
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Another vote for “jam-consistency” fruits, like peaches/apricots/astringent persimmons. 
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Well, the dose makes the poison, right? Tannins are toxic, they cause serious irritation to soft tissue, vomiting and diarrhea, and acute liver damage. Humans just don’t typically eat tannins in high enough quantities to be dangerous (indeed, the small quantities we tend to eat them in may be pretty healthful). The LD50 of gallic acid is about 5g/kg and that of tannic acid is 2.2 g/kg, but serious damage occurs at much lower amounts given chronic exposure.
That’s a good point–there are probably a lot of much easier sources of tannins than unripe persimmons. One would also want to know how effective tannin-treatment would be versus boiled linseed oil, heat-treating, or a proper alkaline copper treatment.
You know, this seems to be the case generally. Crisp apples beat out mushy bletted medlar, native but goopy persimmons and pawpaws never took off, but the comparatively firmer no-mess blueberry, also native to the US, enjoys global popularity, nobody eats actually ripe bananas because they’re just mushy black ooze, and in Asia pears and persimmons are preferred firm.
I wonder, since clearly fruit enthusiasts (so… people like us) are all about those drippy, gooey, ripe fruit, why not the general population? Sure, it might just be that people like neat and tidy and easy, but maybe part of the reason we like these melted ice-cream fruits is partly just due to the fact that they taste better? If you could have a persimmon as flavorful and rich and sweet as a fully ripe persimmon can be, but still crispy and fresh, would you prefer it? I’m thinking I might.
Crisp of course isn’t the only texture. Super creamy or melting, but with some firmness or bite, is also something a lot of people really seem to like, weather it be melon, berries, or peaches. And the way citrus fruits and aggregate berries sort of “burst” is quite appealing, much like how really jammy figs have a toothsome skin that gives way to the condensed fruit nectar inside. IDK, some kind of texture beyond “goop” does seem to be important, even if fruit-crazy people like us keep trying to trick other people into trying (better tasting!) goopy fruits.
But, hey, taste is partly social, partly subjective, and partly circumstantial. There is some objective stuff too, but it’s not the only thing going on, might not even be the main thing going on.
An understandable misunderstanding. My point is that people artificially treating them for centuries doesn’t mean people were also not artificially treating them for centuries. Remember, the original claim from the paper was " these fruits are inedible without artificial treatment to remove the astringency ."
Are you sure about that? I have purchased and eaten numerous astringent type persimmons in Japan that were soft, sweet, and ready to eat. Are you sure all of those were chemically treated? (Also they were cheaper than the mutant types).
