PCA / PCNA / PVA / PVNA / persimmons and what this all means

This is my way of understanding this:

P = Pollen
C = Consistent
N = Non
A = Astringent

J = Japan (kaki from Japan are known to ripen on the grafted-trees)
C = Chinese (kaki from China are known to be ripened mainly with CO2 gas)

PCA = Pollen Consistent Astringent
No matter the pollen had at it, it will always need ripening off the tree.

PCNA = Pollen Consistent Non Astringent
This means that pollen does nothing. And that the fruit ripens on the tree.

Now, when pollen is introduced to plants that can change flavor. This is the letter: V = Variable

PVNA = Pollen will change the fruit flavor. It’s Non-Astringent still so the tree will ripen the fruit vs gas.
PVA - Pollen will change the fruit flavor. This time the A means it needs gas (commercial ripening - CO2 gas) to ripen since the tree alone is not capable of ripening the hanging fruits on it.

A = Astringent so it must ripened off
NA = Non-Astringent so it may be ripened on the tree (or off: kitchen/tables in basements/garages)

I must of read for an entire day and then again thru the week to understand this. (Yet) it’s so simple!

This is/These are all the things that happen with growing: hybrids or kakis or both together and each grafted cultivar has its’ own way of ripening/flavor. American persimmons simply have or don’t have seeds.

Jerry Lehman always stated via email/in-person/phone:

‘American persimmons are as fruitful/(precocious & prolific) w/o males and their flavor isn’t effected with or w/o the presence of pollen… and that a completely seedless orchard of female-only-cultivars is entirely possible without surrounding pollen.’

14 Likes

This is helpful, but it might be more clear to use another descriptor for astringency instead of “ripening on the tree”. Perhaps ripe when soft or something like that?

For PVA fruit, are you saying that’s it’s impossible to obtain ripe fruit without CO2? Seems odd—what happens in nature? And what did people do before industrialization? I’m just learning about persimmons and am not familiar with PVA.

2 Likes

Iirc, Chocolate is the most commonly grown PVA type.

1 Like

My exact thoughts as I read @Barkslip post. Dax, or anyone else, do you have info about natural ripening? Can you put them in a plastic bag with an over ripe apple or some other fruit? I know that people use alcohol, but that might be hard to come by in certain situations.

I have shelving 1/2 of my basement walls and I’m going to lift them off any shelf with hardware cloth rectangles that will set on each shelf. In combination with this advise from @PharmerDrewee via a message to him:

" I just leave them in a box with apples or bananas if I want to accelerate softening. I keep mine in the cold garage to slow things down so I can eat them at my leisure. Kaki can store for a long time in the fridge too."

Freezing them for 24-hours and removing to eat them after they un-freeze removes all astringency. A lot of people just pick and freeze and eat at their leisure until next-years crop.

3 Likes

@FarmGirl-Z6A – A PCA persimmon will lose astringency naturally as it ripens, but typically the persimmon has to be 100% ripe, which means the flesh is very soft and gooey.

A PVA persimmon is like a PCA that gets some help reducing astringency from modest ethanol production by the seeds. So as I understand it (I don’t grow them myself), a PVA persimmon will lose its astringency naturally as it ripens, but maybe slightly faster than the PCA. So maybe it will be edible when it is a little firmer, less gooey.

A PVNA is like a PVCA that gets a lot of help reducing astringency from significant ethanol production by the seeds.

Using an external source of ethylene (e.g., a bag with an apple) will hasten the process of ripening. So either a PCA or a PVA or a PVNA will ripen a little faster and therefore lose astringency a little faster given the ethylene. But it will still be soft / gooey when ripe.

Using ethanol or CO2 stimulates a process different than ripening. These treatments accelerate the loss of astringency without materially impacting the process of ripening. So either a PCA or a PVA will lose astringency quickly with these treatments, before the fruit is 100% ripe. This means that the fruit could be eaten while still somewhat firm, even crunchy.

To this list we can add a complementary description, which mainly concerns the selection: cPCNA and nonPCNA.

What do those dictate regarding differences in ripening?
I assume cPCNA is Chinese pollination constant non-astringent?

What about the other?

Older post, but most usable reference for new members like myself.

1 Like