Cunningham’s Law states “the best way to get the right answer on the internet is not to ask a question; it’s to post the wrong answer.”
OK, so you are deliberately posting the wrong answers here in order to provoke the rest of us to tell you the right answer. Duly noted.
To me the best solution now is to take Cliff PVNA hybrid tree with very cold hardy traits because it survived and fruited in Vermont and cross it with Coffee cake Kaki PVNA. The offsprings will be cold hardy and the fruit size should be large and can consume hard like a PCNA as long as it pollinate with a male flower DV or Kaki. No needs to grow 500 trees to achieve this. This is my 2 cents.
Tony
I’m happy to provide male pollen from Maru, Coffee Cake or Zenji Maru for those interested in PVNA crosses.
This may be a promising route and I would not discourage it.
But here’s a note (or three) of caution:
PVNA fruit lose their astringency because the seeds produce ethanol. We know (I think) that exogenous ethanol does not remove astringency from the fruit of D. Virginiana. At least it never removed astringency from my Prok fruit. And to my knowledge, no one has every reported success on this forum. So there is an open question whether endogenous ethanol will remove the astringency from a hybrid with DV ancestry. [It would help to know whether the fruit from Cliff’s hybrid trees are non-astringent while still firm. In other words, are they PVNA in more than name only?]
Moreover, PV appears to be an additive trait. An insufficiency of PV genes produces a PVA fruit, seedy and astringent, not a desirable outcome. Thus a PVNA x non-PV cross produces PVA offspring – the astringency is not completely removed by the seeds. For example, crosses of Kurokuma (PVNA) x Taishu (PCNA) – both NA, but by different mechanisms! – include the varieties Taiten and Taigetsu, both of which are PVA. Is that what you would have expected?
Finally, the genetics of cold hardiness is not understood. Most likely it is also somewhat additive or subject to complex interactions. It seems most likely that most offspring of a cold hardy x non-cold hardy cross would end up somewhat intermediate. Probably not all of them. But it would seem foolish to depend on the result of one cross. You may need hundreds to get one that works.
Without many generations of breeding, it would seem that the only way to increase the cold hardiness of any PVNA x DV hybrid strain in 1-2 generations would be to increase the proportion of DV. That would reduce the probability that (a) there are sufficient PV genes to produce enough ethanol to eliminate astringency, and/or (b) there is a sufficiently Kaki metabolism for the endogenous ethanol to actually work!
Moreover, you would still have to be content to eat seeded fruit.
Actually yes, it is exactly what genetics would predict for the same reason crossing a yellow when ripe tomato with a green when ripe tomato produces red tomatoes. It is a single biopath interrupted very early by green when ripe and slightly later by yellow. In the cross, the genes from the yellow tomato complete the disruption from the green mutation and vice versa. The same concept would apply to the astringency biopath in persimmon. If two non-astringent varieties that use different mechanisms are crossed, they would bypass each other’s interruptions and produce PVA fruit.
There is a reason astringency is highly conserved in persimmon. It protects the fruit from predation until they are mature. At that time, the fruit should become edible as it permits consumption of the fruit and spreading of the seed. Raccoons are huge persimmon seed spreaders.
Yeah, I agree with all of this. Exactly right. I just think Tony is overoptimistic. I don’t think that he (or most forum members) would have expected the cross of two varieties that produce non-astringency in two different ways to be astringent. The simple, intuitive prediction is that the two mechanisms would reinforce each other. But that’s not what happens. The outcome makes sense only if we consider the demanding genetics of the separate mechanisms.
More broadly, I think forum members are pursuing way too many hybrid crosses that have very poor prospects of a materially better result. As I see it, a NA hybrid will have to have one of the following:
1. 6 J-PCNA alleles.
2, 4-6 PVNA alleles.
3. 1 C-PCNA allele.
4. Whatever genes may be responsible for non-astringency in the DV variety Morris Burton or the hybrid variety Gora Roman Kosch, if that non-astringency is genetic rather than environmental.
Even so, the results of #1-3 will work reliably in Kakis but still need to be tested in Virginiana.
I’m pushing a cross of JT-02 x Taishu because I think it has the best prospects. Something else might work. I’m just playing the odds.
It’s good to recognize that we don’t know much about it… it would be better not to say permanently that things don’t exist, when we don’t know anything about it!
For example, I said there were PVNA hybrids in the USA…you said that was wrong. I know what I’m talking about and obviously you haven’t finished reading and learning. Dax is ahead of you.
At home there is a saying that says “knowledge is like jam, the less you have, the more you spread it.”
Maybe you should look for variety wood instead of making long tirades.
For your questions, diospyros are fascinating.
About Ukrainian hybrids, if you look at the local choice of pollinating varieties, you will understand everything about their origin of selection.
For Cliff’s khaki it’s not so surprising. Originally all khakis are stringent. Mutations are at the origin of the disappearance of astreingence.
Stranger is a Russian PCNA that originated as a female Meader.
There are 2 types of hybrids. large fruit and little resistant and small fruit is cold hardy.
Just a reminder. It is easier to talk then doing the trial in itself. It usually takes about 8 to 10 years to get one generation going if you just planted a seed and let it be. I do it the easier and faster way by growing out my hybrids seeds and after a year of growth then take a cutting and grafted to larger rootstock to get faster fruits for sampling.
Tony
@Arhus76 –
[For anyone who cares, this discussion took place in the thread about Hybrid persimmon future looks great, roughly post 750.]
For starters, I did not say that you were wrong. I asked for more details, such as the location of the supposed 2 PVNA hybrids in the US. You would provide nothing. I complained that you were not more forthcoming, teasing us with tidbits but then withholding any details. And I remained skeptical without those details.
Tony’s post above describes the existence of Cliff’s 2 PVNA hybrids as “breaking news.” You see, nobody else knew either. There’s a saying about a tree falling in the forest.
Most important, there were (and are) two semantic issues that deeply affect the significance of the news.
It turns out that Cliff’s trees are PVNA [Costata] x PCA hybrid. To me it is unclear whether the hybrid is F1 Rosseyanka [DV x Kaki] as Tony says or a backcrossed F2 Rosseyanka as Cliff seems to imply by writing “Rossey 2.”
So it’s a fine point but we should be clear that the PVNA Costata was not directly crossed with a DV variety.
We know that even among pure Kakis, the cross of a PVNA x PCA or even PVNA x PCNA does not normally produce PVNA fruit. The offspring are usually PVA – not completely non-astringent until full maturity. I asked you about the fruit and as I recall you wrote that you didn’t know.
To my knowledge, nobody has verified that Cliff’s two Ukrainian PVNA hybrids produce actual PVNA fruit. I can see from the photos that there is color variance, presumably produced by seeds, so that is promising. But the fruit with the dark flesh looks more than fully ripe. I’d like confirmation that the fruit is NA BEFORE it becomes fully ripe, like a true PVNA.
This semantic issue isn’t just a quibble. For example, suppose I told you that there is a PCNA hybrid name JT-02. You’d say that I was wrong. JT-02 is PCA. But JT-02 a PCNA hybrid one sense, as the male parent is the PCNA variety, Taishu. Would you consider my description accurate? Sufficient? Would I be justified to withhold other details? You would taste the unripe fruit from this “PCNA hybrid” and then gag because the fruit is still PCA.
Bottom line:
I fully believe these reports that a PVNA kaki has been crossed with a DV x Kaki hybrid. There’s no reason not to believe since the cross would not have required embryo rescue. I would have believed months ago if you had provided these details.
I remain skeptical about the fruit. The PVNA trait seems additive. PVNA fruit seems to require >50% PVNA parentage. It’s not clear that a Rossy 2 male could have provided any PVNA genes.
p.s. A final issue still under investigation: In multiple sources, I have seen Costata described as PCA. Even Cliff describes Costata as PCA.
" Picudo from Italy - This tree is also know as Costata. A tree of great vigor, regularly fertile and very productive. Its very decorative foliage is a beautiful bright red color in autumn and accompanies fruiting. Its cold hardiness is high. Fruit mid-season, early flowering, good size, conical and ribbed, it is a beautiful yellow-orange. The skin is thin, light and creamy flesh is soft, tasty and pleasant, the taste is good, their ability to dry is good. The fruit are of an astringent type."
Tony – Cliff seems confused. Costata is evidently PCA. Even he describes it as such (see below). So it could not have produced PCNA offspring. The dark flesh per se is not proof.
I haven’t seen inheritance patterns for PVNA. There is abundant evidence that a lot of PVA and PCA varieties have hidden recessives so it is completely possible for a PVA or PCA to produce offspring that potentially are PVNA or PCNA.
It is better to say we don’t know if it could happen than to say it “can’t happen”.
Cliff just sent a voice mail that you can eat it hard. So it is a true PVNA hybrid. This is very exciting news. There you go Joe. Time for you to grow some and enjoy it hard. 
I guessed miracle happened once in a while.
@Fusion_power – Agreed that it is foolish to be categorical.
What I would say in this case is that it is extremely unlikely that the cross of a PCA Kaki [Costata] x a PCA hybrid [Rossey 2] with PCA Kaki and PCA Virginiana ancestry would produce PVNA offspring.
FWIW, I don’t think the PV trait is recessive. The best explanation of the evidence is that 1-2 PV genes may cause a bit of PV in a variety that is otherwise PCNA (e.g., Fuyu), 3-4 PV genes may cause somewhat more PV in a variety that otherwise would be PCA (e.g., any PVA variety), and 5-6 PV genes may cause significant PV in a variety that otherwise would be PCA (e.g., Coffee Cake, Chocolate). I’m being overly precise with the numbers just to illustrate the point.
Tony – I’m sorry, the story just does not hang together. It is nearly impossible that a persimmon with (a) one PCA [not PCNA!] Kaki parent, and (b) another PCA Kaki x Virginiana hybrid parent with no known PV ancestry would produce a PVNA offspring.
I wish you luck with it. I won’t waste my time.
I don’t answer because I don’t like your way of presenting and challenging things. And you say you don’t know anything. How to challenge when you do not have the knowledge to do so.
I’ll play dumb like you!
What allows you to say that JT02 and JBT06 are hybrids and that they would have the possibility of making PCNA hybrids? These hybrids might as well not carry the PCNA genes, right?
What is the percentage of D.virginia on these 2 supposed hybrids? You have certainly studied their cariotypes to make this proposal. Can you confirm the number of loci that carry the jPCNA gene, 1, 2 or 3 OR MORE, none? (well yes there may have been crossing overs…)
What is the best possible choice between an “asian persimmon x virginiana”, “virginiana x asian persimmon”, “hybrid x virginiana”, “asian persimmon x hybrid” or “hybrid x hybrid” cross? Why? What scientific basis are you relying on?
On what scientific basis do you extrapolate results on pure Asian trials for hybrids. What allows you to say how the PCNA genes associated with the diospyros virginiana genes will be expressed?
How many generations does it take to have a desired result?
The easiest solution would probably be a cPCNA x the Rosseyanka 18 male mutation. The result will probably give you 15 and 25% PCNA hybrids in F1.
Will they be strong enough? Probably not!
But they will offer cPCNA pollinator males which this time can be used to pollinate virginiana. Simple no.
@Arhus76 –
I’m an admitted amateur, so my modus operandi is (1) read to learn, and (2) discuss to explore and test. Being an amateur, I try to provide scientific research to support my assertions. And I hope that others will do the same.
<< What allows you to say that JT02 and JBT06 are hybrids and that they would have the possibility of making PCNA hybrids? These hybrids might as well not carry the PCNA genes, right? >>
We know that Taishu must have 6 NA genes. So JT-02 must have 3 NA genes. If there is a back-cross of JT-02 x Taishu, something like 5% of the offspring will have a full complement of 6 NA genes. This is not merely my estimate, it is supported by published scientific reports that I posted.
<< On what scientific basis do you extrapolate results on pure Asian trials for hybrids. What allows you to say how the PCNA genes associated with the diospyros virginiana genes will be expressed? >>
I have freely cautioned that Kaki NA genes might not work as hoped in a Kaki x DV hybrid. In a separate thread, I cautioned that it seems unlikely that Kaki PV genes will produce non-astringency in a Kaki x DV hybrid.
<< The easiest solution would probably be a cPCNA x the Rosseyanka 18 male mutation. . . . But they will offer cPCNA pollinator males which this time can be used to pollinate virginiana. Simple no. >>
I think you answered your own question here. A C-PPCNA x DV hybrid might work but we can’t try.
BTW, your silence about details doesn’t hurt me except symbolically because I’m not actually going to do any breeding. But it does hurt other members of the forum who might avoid wasted effort with better information.
Translated, I don’t have a horse in this race, but I intend to tell all the jockeys how to ride!
I started a breeding program for chickens 10 years ago to introgress the blue egg gene into a Silver Laced Wyandotte background. I have good looking chickens with SLW phenotype that lay blue eggs. It took 10 years to get there. Similar timelines are needed for persimmon breeding. Don’t just talk, grow some trees!
I don’t see it as a race. It’s a journey. If anybody reaches the destination, we all win. If more than one reach it, we all win. But like everyone else, breeder or not, I do have a stake in the outcome. I’m not going to live another 50 years, and I’d like to grow a non-astringent hybrid in my remaining lifetime. I have no time for false starts and cut-de-sacs.
Meanwhile, it does none of us any good if any one of us, breeder or not, points us in the wrong direction. My questions arise when I think that’s what’s happening: For example, Dax mis-identified two offspring of Nikita’s Gift as offspring of Josephine (DV) x Taishu (J-PCNA). That might lead one of us to expect (incorrectly) that these varieties contain the J-PCNA gene. Cliff loosely (if technically correctly) referred to two crosses of Costata x Rossey 2 as PVNA. That might lead one of us to expect (incorrectly) that these varieties contain a J-PVNA gene. And so on.
Re PCNAs, the reality is that Japanese breeders are almost certainly already working on a JT-02 x Taishu backcross, complementing their many other crosses and backcrosses of PCAs x PCNAs. And Chinese breeders are almost certainly working on crossed with C-PCNA varieties. So we’ll know the answers relatively soon.
Re PVNAs, Asian breeders view dark-fleshed persimmons as inferior to PCNAs. So hybridization to produce PVNA varieties is likely to remain a wide-open arena.
Brown University is a half hour trip by public transportation from Bristol RI. There one can obtain excellent answers to all the questions one might have about hybrid persimmons, and probably establish a collaboration with a faculty member – albeit not all in one trip. I would start by writing a single non-technical paragraph explaining what you wish to to accomplish, with your name and email address. Then hand carry a printout of it to the office of the Dean of Biology, and ask the clerk to put it in their inbox. If you are not invited to wait or make an appointment, then go back in two weeks and inquire about the outcome.
You don’t prove anything.
For Taishu you mean 3 NA gene… 3 PCNA, 3 PVNA? On this breeding series, the PCNA x PVNA crosses were made… what is the statistical influence? have you taken into account that there will be 85% males?
I think taking everything into account will be closer to the 1-2% seed that will offer some and that means having the right starting material. Talking does not make progress and it is better to have more openness and seek the right wood.
You criticize as usual the possibility that Cliff is a PVNA! ok but to draw this conclusion you are going to give us the varieties used by the Russians to create Rosseyanka and thus show us that neither Rosseyanka, nor rossey, nor Rossey f2 are carriers of the PVNA genes. Then you can argue. When you’ve done is create a few, you can say that what Cliff says doesn’t prove anything, neither does his photo…
brief fact and you can dispute facts.