That is fine. We bought some persimmons (I believe the most common Fuyu) from the local market. We cut one to try. The taste is so bad that we threw it away in the trash.
Then we put them with some apples and kept them over the counter for a month or so. Finally they got soft. The taste is sweeter. But the skin is still thick. The flavor just can’t compare with the Kassandra I picked off my own tree.
No, no interested in those non-astringent persimmons. Anything not fully ripen is not good.
OK, so I’m going to try to get the thread back on track. The question I posed is not whether non-astringent Asian persimmons taste good. That issue is a detour. The question I posed in my OP is whether we should be back-crossing JT-02.
The implicit question is whether we are one cross away from a non-astringent Asian-American hybrid. To my amateur eye, it seems that the answer is yes. Here I’m asking the more knowledgeable growers/breeders/geneticists whether my optimism is misplaced.
Reviews of JT-02 indicate that the taste is very good. That tells me that PCNA ancestry does not preclude great flavor. But when/if we actually get a non-astringent daughter of JT-02, we can debate how it tastes and whether it is better than the astringent parent. 
What are the best tasting astringent varieties (hybrid, American or Asian) you tried?
As far as I can remember, many year ago, I had the best tasting astringent persimmon fruits every year. No names at all, all from the fruit farmers who grew their own fruit trees. I do not think there were any hybrids at that time. There were no chemicals for the farmers to use to ripen fruits.
Same with jujube, Chinese hawthorns and a lot other native fruits. It was all small farmer’s market, not the giant supermarket like we have now.
I think this is the main reason that we grow our own fruit trees for best quality that the stores can’t provide.
Also here is an astringent persimmon tree that my friend has in Princeton NJ. No idea what variety it is. Not sure if they know since they did not plant it (them). We picked persimmons on Nov-1. I kept them over the counter for a couple of weeks. As far as I remember, the taste is about the same as I remember many years ago. Very sweet and juicy. I always want to compare figs vs persimmons with the high brix level.
Do not intend to hijack this thread. Here is an interesting read how the native people grow persimmons.
https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/travel/2013-11/24/content_17127259.htm
All Goras are 3rd generation hybrids made by backcrossing Nikita’s Gift with monoecious kaki. They were spontaneous rather than intended. It seems that NG is or was pivotal in most of the backcrossing in the last 30 years. Dar Sofiyivky is the only exception where female Kolgospnitsa was backcrossed with virginiana.
Answer to your second point is probably yes, but when you try to backcross hybrid which is 90 % kaki with pure virginiana, you may end up with undeveloped seeds. One interesting strategy would be crossing existing hybrids with each other.
I used to think that non astringents are tasteless but changed my mind completely. They are fantastic piece of fruit. Do not eat them straight from the tree but let them sit on the counter for a week or two.
In my region at my closest Asian market, and in Chinatown Manhattan, non-astringent persimmons seem very popular with the Asian clientele. Are your beliefs based on any data? My anecdotal observation is different than yours, but I don’t put much credence in it. I don’t have any data about relative volume of sales between types. However, breeding programs are expensive and it seems funding would be based on such data. It wouldn’t be purely about the fruit quantity sold- it would be about the relative value of the crop. Dried persimmons may not be very profitable for the growers.
This is not based on data or something. The only advantage of non-astringent persimmon over astringent persimmon is that fruits can be picked prior to fully ripe. So we do not have to wait until they are fully soft and ripe. Granted, non-astringent persimmons have different texture and some people prefer that. But in general, 75% ripe non-astringent persimmon can’t compare vs 95% ripe astringent persimmon in terms of flavor. If we wait for both types to be 95% or 100% ripe, then what is the advantage of non-astringent?
@alen, I do not doubt your observation. But in US, most stores do not even carry astringent persimmons. NJ has a huge Asian population. But we only see Fuyu in local Asian market. Same thing with local regular farmer’s market. They do not have much taste.
In our Princeton area, there is a huge Chinese population and some towns are ~20% Chinese population. I organized some fruit tree purchases a couple of years ago. There is huge demand for astringent persimmon, jujube and Chinese hawthorn trees. We purchased a large quantity from C. England. Not many people are interested in the Japanese style non-astringent persimmons. But unfortunately very few Chinese varieties of persimmon trees are brought into USA.
As far as I know, dried persimmon is still a good business. There is still a healthy demand for them. Same in Korea too.
In terms of market for persimmons, it is still a niche market and I do not see it gets into any mainstream any time soon. All the non-astringent types are attempts into regular US consumers since US consumers do not want to wait for the fruits to be fully ripe. But it seem most of the US consumer market are still Asian consumers.
I do not have data. Just my two cents of common sense.
Ukrainian breeding – Great info, thanks. I’ll edit my post to reflect.
Backcrossing hybrids – Got it. I didn’t say so explicitly, but I was thinking about a backcross of V x J-PCNA with J-PCNA in order to produce a non-astringent hybrid. Backcrossing V x J-PCNA with V might improve cold-hardiness but it would just perpetuate the astringency.
Two comments –
Around here, so called “wholesale” outlets like Costo often have crates of persimmons too. Finally I can sometimes find Fuyu/Jiro and/or Hachiya (sometimes mislabeled as each other) in Stop and Shop. I bought a single Hachiya the other day for $4. It was labeled Fuyu.
But Hachiya (or any astringent) is a tough sell in general because most American consumers don’t know what to do with them. Typically they are shipped before becoming fully ripe – You can’t just eat them off the shelf. That’s why astringents tend to be a niche item in the U.S.
A predominately Chinese (rather than Japanese or Korean) community presents the opposite problem – practically speaking, there are no non-astringents in ChIna. But people there know what an astringent persimmon is and how to handle it. People tend to prefer what they know.
This was just an initial crude attempt prompted by a big crop of ~300 fruits. I suspect that with fine tuning, I might make the season longer. For starters, I’m going to try more chilling (e.g., ~40 F). Basically, I’m going to try treating my IKKJ like an apple or pear that stores well. I’ll probably also dry some.
This is a great story. Thanks for posting.
Most of the consumers do not even know what they are buying…
But after they buy and the persimmons do not taste sweet, they won’t buy again. This is why we see persimmons stay on shelf for a long time. They are not the same kind of persimmons that we can buy in China and Korea etc. I think those supermarket non-astringent persimmons really ruin the reputation of persimmons as a whole. The same that we do not buy figs from supermarket.
When and where can you find Great Wall Chinese persimmons in Asian market? None.
My observation is that non-astringent tend to be harder to find but that this is changing. Trader Joe’s and Cosco in particular often only have non-astringent available, I assume because of the problem of people biting into firm astringent types, but I’ve always preferred the texture of Fuyus as has every pers lover I happen to know (maybe about 5 in total, so my sample is small, but these are foodies turned off by the texture of slimy pers.)
When I was a boy in CA, all persimmons I ever saw grown were astringent, acorn shaped types and until less than 10 years ago they were all I saw anywhere outside of Asian markets.
Perhaps you are in a minority of those that like the rich slime of a ripe astringent pers. I like them- just not as much as a firm persimmon.
I do not think I’m in the minority. Maybe the minority here, but not as a consumer. As I said, we have a large Asian population and I’m very active in the gardening community. I know what people want.
A couple local Asian farms got established over the past few years. A lot people asked those farmers to plant jujube and persimmons trees (not the American non-astringent types). But the farmers are old. They did not want to spend the time to grow fruit trees. But if anyone has the capital and time, there is a huge local demand. All those local farms run good business now.
I think the pursuing of non-astringent persimmon is in the wrong direction. We basically tell consumer that persimmons can be had when they are not fully ripe. So consumers only know of those non-astringent persimmons and consider they are the standard. But the non-astringent persimmon market is only a small market in general. Unfortunately that is what US persimmon market is.
This is what I stated that those non-astringent persimmon really damage the reputation of persimmons in general. Whenever I hear people saying persimmons do not taste sweet, I know exactly that they eat the non-astringent persimmons that are not even fully ripe.
Sry for being off the track. I was mainly answering questions. I do not get much to add any more.
The only thing I want to say that, all those hard persimmons, green jujube and good looking Brown Turkey figs sold at supermarkets do not represent the quality of the real figs, jujubes and persimmons we normally eat from our native land. This is the reason that we grow our own fruit trees and we share ideas and learn from others here.
Happen gardening…
Whenever I hear people saying persimmon made them gag, I know what they ate – a not-quite-ripe astringent. Inadequate ripeness is an issue, whatever the type.
Fair enough. Happy gardening to you too.
I’m wondering if it wouldn’t be easier to test JT-02 and NBT-01-08 to see if they carry the recessive PCNA gene.
I’m not sure what you mean. If the father is Taishu, which is 100% PCNA, aren’t we certain that 3 of 6 genes are the recessive NA gene?
Good point. I think I twisted my message around in editing a response that I’d started before going back and reading the beginning of the thread.
