No worries. Been there. For me it usually results from multi-tasking at high speed, 
2 Likes
Another thing to consider is that since we have the necessary genetic markers to tell with a high level of confidence whether a persimmon will be PCNA, any breeding program can be greatly accelerated by screening the seeds for proper genetics before you even plant them. If I understand how persimmon sexes work, you could also screen for female offspring. Imagine if instead of planting 1000 trees, and half or more are male, and only 5% of the females are PCNA, you plant 1000 trees and 90% are PCNA females. Sure, it will still take years before you can taste the fruit, but your odds of gettting the other desirable traits (quality, hardiness, size) is much better. Out of reach for the average back yard breeder, but it’s something that any university breeding program could handle.
4 Likes
Great point. Also I believe that the Japanese (maybe also Korean) breeders are grafting new varieties to mature rootstock ASAP. So they can begin to check out fruit in ~3 years.
2 Likes
Agreed, at the end of the day, astringents just blow away non-astringents in taste. Usually, non-astringents are for beginner eaters. But the more experienced consumers are going to prefer astringents - so that is where the future will be in newer, non-Asian markets, just like older Asian ones.
It is really hard to say since those markets are really niche markets. It all depends on the few growers on what they want to grow. But all commercial growers want to make some commercial sense. It is not the consumers who determine the fruit trees they develop or grow.
It was Roger Meyer who single handedly brought some of the newer jujube varieties to USA. Cliff England made them available. But both are gone or retired now. Ms. S. Yao brought quite a few new varieties for her NMSU, but they are still not available. Just a couple of people who made significant contributions over the past 20 years or so.
Persimmon market may be similar though I’ve not followed this market closely. Quite some non-astringent varieties have been brought into US since growers believe they can be marketed more easily since most consumers do not want the astringent taste. Very few astringent varieties were brought in since growers did not think there would be much market. Culture barrier or difference is clearly there.
We still keep some hope…
1 Like
European market is flooded with Rojo Brillante from Spain which is treated with CO2 and can be eaten hard as if being PCNA , later on comes Sharon from Izrael and Triumph from South Africa both undergone the same treatment. Now, try to sell the public astringent persimmon that you harvest from your trees. I am sick and tired to explain everybody what to do with the fruit. Astringent persimmon is not marketable…and by the way leads to constipation if you are a tea drinker.
2 Likes
This is a true statement of the commercial markets. There is the disconnect of the commercial growers who bring in inferior unripe non-astringent persimmons vs the ripe and best taste persimmon fruits (both astringent or non-astringent).
When I see the green jujube fruits on the shelf of Asian supermarket, I stay away. They may be from the best jujube trees. But those unripe jujube taste much worse than my old LI jujube in red color.
If commercial growers keep doing the same, I’d expect some small local growers to supply to local market. I’ll be happy to pay 50% over supermarket prices if I can get ripe jujube or persimmon fruits.
Most wild fruits and nuts are astringent, especially when not fully ripe. It’s a defense mechanism that protects developing seeds. But astringency and taste are separate – and separable – traits. One goal of domestication is the elimination of most of this astringency.
Re persimmons, the most important question is not whether astringent varieties currently taste better than non-astringent varieties. It’s not whether Asian consumers are sophisticated and European consumers naive. The most important question is whether we can use the toolkit of domestication to ensure that the best persimmon flavors are presented in a non-astringent package.
So my question in the OP is whether we are on the verge of this breakthrough. And in response to the disparagement of current non-astringent varieties, I can only ask: What happens when a we have an Asian-American hybrid that is both non-astringent and tasty? I would not be surprised to see such a non-astringent hybrid (e.g., a back-cross of JT-02 and Taishu) within the next decade.
The same question could be asked of some hypothetical non-astringent hybrid of Asian PCAs with Asian PCNAs. Eventually, genetic engineering may produce non-astringent versions of Hachiya, Saiyo, etc.
Very few of the world’s consumers will prefer astringent persimmons when there is an equally flavorful non-astringent alternative.
1 Like
This is the most mis-conception I get out of this thread. So some people still think astringency is a wild thing and should be tamed and domesticated to produce “superior” non-astringent persimmons. This is clearly not true and leading us to the wrong direction.
You are probably correct that astringency is naturally occurring. I do not know if non-astringent persimmons can match the tastes of regular astringent varieties. But even with the commercial non-astringent varieties, we still need to wait for the fruits to ripen to get the best tastes and flavors. But if we wait for all persimmons to reach ripe stage, then any advantages of non-astringent types vs astringent types just disappear.
Clearly some people try to push the hard (half ripe) non-astringent persimmons for common consumers to digest. This is totally different from the real persimmons that produce the best tastes and flavors. There are two different worlds of “persimmons”.
What I can say is that no un-ripe non-astringent persimmons can match the tastes and flavors of fully ripe astringent persimmons. This is what you get when you try to “educate” consumer to digest those hard half-ripe non-astringent persimmons.
Also want to add that, some fruits like apples and pears, you can pick and store for considerable period of time and they still keep good flavors. But some other fruits, like persimmons, jujube and particularly figs get the best flavors when fully ripen. We just can’t pick green jujube and hard figs and bring them to the market. It just does not work that way.
I see there’s an argument, but I’m at post 28, currently. I just want to say I have a question that I believe I already know the answer to but, isn’t Chuchupaka (another) that is xNikita’s Gift as its’ backcross? @Harbin I believe I read that from you.
Do you or does anyone know the pedigree for Chuchupaka (hybrid persimmon)?
Thanks,
Dax
<< What I can say is that no un-ripe non-astringent persimmons can match the tastes and flavors of fully ripe astringent persimmons.>>
Sure, so what? You’re making an unfair comparison – unripe non-astringents vs ripe astringents. I would totally agree that unripe astringents have a milder flavor than ripe anything.
<< But if we wait for all persimmons to reach ripe stage, then any advantages of non-astringent types vs astringent types just disappear. >>
In my experience, a non-astringent reaches peak flavor when the texture is soft but not yet gooey – ideally like a ripe mango. But the astringent Americans I’ve tasted (Prok) and the astringent Asians I’ve tasted (Hachiya) do not completely lose astringency until they are quite soft. To anyone who finds the texture of a fully ripe astringent persimmon unappealing, the advantage of a non-astringent is superior texture.
<< You are probably correct that astringency is naturally occurring. >>
There’s no other possibility, is there?
<< I do not know if non-astringent persimmons can match the tastes of regular astringent varieties. >>
Right. That is precisely what we hope to discover.
2 Likes
All I’ll add “quickly” is that Morris Burton matches the flavor of Hachiya in an American persimmon form. So does ‘Lena’ American - which I’d like to know (someday) its pedigree. Lena is not in the Claypool Orchard Records, however Lena is as good as Morris Burton and I couldn’t tell any difference in flavor/size, but the fruits are definitely different.
Some great photos. Click on photo to open photo book.
Edit: btw, there wasn’t an argument.
2 Likes
I think the motivation for the non-astringent persimmon is clearly from the banana market. Banana and apple are the two fruits that we can pick raw and ripen them artificially with chemical gas. We do remove the astringency of banana with this commercial technique. It has been a success in general. When I visited Maui last summer, I tasted the naturally ripen bananas and the flavors are clearly better than store bought bananas.
Clearly we try to do the same with persimmons. We can’t control the ripening with chemical gas, so we try to remove the astringency and try to bring unripe fruits to the market.
Commercial jujube has been a failure. Commercial fig is mostly a failure though Costco and some local farmer markets do bring some so-so quality figs to the consumers.
Commercial persimmon market is mostly a failure too. I mostly stay away from supermarket persimmons. Yes they are non-astringent. But they get no taste. This failure resulted from efforts to educate consumer to digest the half ripe non-astringent persimmons. The more we try, the more we ruin the reputation of persimmon market. Taming the astringency is just the wrong direction IMO.
So instead of bringing ripe fruits to the market, we try to tame and remove the astringency and educate consumer to digest the half ripe non-astringent fruits…
Let’s get back on track about breeding, please. It’s become ridiculous to sort thru the (continued) comments.
Happy gardening to everyone on earth. thank you, all.
fair enough?
DAx
3 Likes
Amen.
1 Like
@Barkslip I’ve already mentioned somewhere that Chuchupaka is Nikita’s Gift backcrossed with D.virginiana. It obviously had to be a male tree since D. virginiana rarely forms monoecious plants.
1 Like
An example, please:
See if someone crossed Nikita’s Gift again with Morris Burton, this is the resulting percentages:
Nikita’s Gift, they’d likely be 3/16 kaki, which is just a little under 20%.
So therefore Chuchupaka is how much kaki and how much virginiana is my next question if someone would to do the math? I’m not good at this but the above is @SMC_zone6 calculations for ‘DR. KAZAS’ - which is a Jerry Lehman introduction.
I can’t do the math, myself. I need help.
I’m establishing that somebody needs (me) to isolate Chuchupaka and JT-02. But I need help again/advice if this combination could prove likely a crunchy persimmon without astringency that can be picked off a tree.
The other (2) obvious combinations are:
Morris Burton x JT-02
Morris Burton x Chuchupaka.
And a third is to put all three together and grow out hundreds of seedlings, which is no big deal to do. Hell I could put a row and space them every meter to get them to fruit. I’m not going to graft them to force precociousness.
I’m looking for hardiness (zone 5b).
JT-02 is hardy and crops at -22 F and is hardier than that setting outside, but, planted of course and established…
Chuchupaka AFAIK is the hardiest in Europe of hybridized persimmons.
Thanks you
Dax
2 Likes
Jerry Lehman writes regarding his release, ‘Dr. Kazas’:
"I have included scion’s from 4 open pollinated seedlings of the
Nikitskaya Bordovaya, Nikita’s gift. One is a male a 2nd one has never
flowered the other 2 should be female. They are 400-5, 400-7, 400-8 and
Dr. Kazas. I don’t remember the CV number of the now named variety I’m
releasing as Dr. Kazas. Dr. Kazas was a plant breeder at the Nikita
Botanic Gardens in Yalta Crimea. One of his endeavors was back breeding
Rosseyanka to kaki to produce a more kaki like persimmon with improved
winter hardiness. He wrote several papers on the subject and bread the
variety Nikitskaya Bordovaya named Nikita’s Gift. In the US. Jim Gilbert
received the 1st accession directly from Dr. Kazas. I plan to write an
article of the release including a brief bio of Dr. Kazas.
Dr. Kazas is a large mid season persimmon, soft, sweet, clear pulp.
Simply a great persimmon and genetically is 50% virginiana, 50% kaki." Jerry Lehman
How any of the four I’m interested in could be bred to produce a non-astringent “crunchy” persimmon is what I wish to know. Here they are again:
Hybrids:
Dr. Kazas
JT-02
Chuchupaka
and American:
Morris Burton
Dr. Kazas didn’t flinch much or nothing at all on 1" to 2" to 3" caliper persimmon seedlings I grafted onto 4-6 years ago when it dropped to -33 F in Henderson County, IL. USA 2018 I believe.
There was none damaged wood on KAZAS.
2 Likes
Thanks for getting this back on track. I just want to make a quick note about percentages in genetics. While you can pretty confidently say the first generation is half of parent A and half of Parent B, you can’t say with any certainty what the percentages of subsequent generations will be. Why? Because the plant carries 2 copies of each gene, one from each parent (or in hexaploid persimmons, 6 copies, 3 from each parent). Now, which copy gets sent along to the next generation in a given ovule or pollen is determined at random for each gene. Basically, each gene is a coin toss whether parent A’s copy or parent B’s copy goes into the next generation. And while you’ll probably get half heads and half tails, it’s entirely possible to get all heads or all tails. So there is a vanishingly small chance two 50/50 hybrids bred together could produce offspring that have 100% kaki genes or 100% virginiana genes. What’s happens in practice is that the highest number of seedlings will be 50/50, with decreasing proportions on each side of that. Think of the classic bell curve. Now, if you breed a 50/50 with a 100% kaki, your distribution will be centered on the 75% kaki, but any given seedling could be anywhere on a broad spectrum from 100% kaki to 50% virginiana genes.
In sum, the fractional heritage is useful for predicting the genetics of a population of seedlings, but wouldn’t tell you about the genetics of any given seedling.
6 Likes
My understanding is that the Ukrainian crosses all involve astringent (PCA) kakis. Since this trait for astringency appears dominant, it seems likely that any descendant with even 1 of 6 kaki genes will be astringent.
Also, the American varieties are astringent. I do not know whether the same/analogous set of genes controls the astringency in Americans. But it seems that any American genes will drive astringency as well. If you think that you can rely on Morris Burton to be non-astringent (or tolerably low in astringency), there’s still the Asian PCA gene(s) to contend with.
JT-02, on the other hand, presumably already has 3/6 non astringent genes from the PCNA Taishu. Back-crossing JT-02 to Taishu would seem a viable strategy, requiring only one additional generation.
In theory, crossing JT-02 with other Americans and then backcrossing to JT-02 repeatedly would also seem to get you to a non-astringent offspring eventually but it would take LOTS of hybrids.
The most direct approach would be to replicate Jerry Lehman’s process for JT-02. Specifically, cross Morris Burton (or whichever virginiana you choose) with Taishu (or some other PCNA with male flowers), then do whatever is necessary to ensure that the embryos stay viable. [I say that without knowing anything about the specifics.] Assuming a viable cross with desirable characteristics, you’d then be 1 more cross away from a non-astringent hybrid as described in my OP.
3 Likes