Lena, originally Mitchellena was found near Mitchell, In (source Persimmons for Everyone by J.C.McDaniel 1982).
Josephine was considered by the same author as obsolete. So how come that Japanese used it for breeding? Strange isn’t it ?
Interesting read this book. Nice story about Morris Burton…I can reproduce it, if anyone’s interested.
By the way, you cannot cross Nikitas Gift, Chuchupaka, JT-02, Morris Burton with each other…they are all females.
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LOL. Technicalities. 
FWIW, I had never heard of Josephine until I saw it mentioned as a parent of JT-02. But I think that Jerry Lehman selected it and crossed it. My understanding is that he used the Japanese for embryo rescue.
I would be very interested in the story about Morris Burton. Maybe in another thread so as not to derail this one any further?
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While I generally agree regarding the crosses and potential to develop a stable non-astringent, the numbers and speculation posted so far are pretty much off base. In a straight 2N cross, segregation for 3 genes would require 64 offspring to be grown out just using the numbers. You might get lucky and do it with only a handful of crosses or you might not and have to grow out several hundred. Since ploidy levels are a concern, you would have to know the exact ploidy of the cross to be made and determine how many genes are segregating for the trait. More important to me is that deliberately crossing back to kaki is going to compromise the cold tolerance very fast. This is because cold tolerance is usually dependent on several genes and/or several biopaths (multiple genes acting in concert).
If I were trying to do this cross, here is what I would attempt. Make at least 8 crosses between non-astringent kaki and one of the virginiana X kaki hybrids (a 3/4 V and 1/4 K hybrid would be ideal). Since monoecious traits are involved, save all of the female plants and save 4 of the male only plants. Interplant about 30 of the female plants with 4 male plants. Save all the seed and plant about 1000 seedlings. The probability is nearly 100% that a few of the seedlings will combine non-astringent with cold tolerance with large good flavored fruit.
Why would I take this approach? Because the numbers are on your side where every other approach means painstaking crosses made with low probability of getting a desirable offspring.
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Let’s focus on the proposed cross of JT-02 x Taishu.
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Both varieties are hexaploid with 6 x 15 = 90 chromosomes. [Note that we are not trying to manage 3 genes on a 2N species but rather 1 gene on a 6N species.]
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The PCNA trait is recessive, so a PCNA variety must have 6 PCNA genes. Taishu can be assumed to be homozygous with 6 PCNA genes. JT-02 (1/2 V and 1/2 K) can be assumed to have 3 PCNA genes, inherited from it’s Taishu parent.
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As noted above, Taishu produces male flowers.
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In any single cross, JT-02 would contribute 3 PCNA genes and Taishu would contribute from 0 to 3 PCNA genes.
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As noted, the probability that any one cross is homozygous for PCNA would seem to be 3/6 x 2/5 x 1/4 = 5%.
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So 1000 seedlings would have an “expected value” of 50 PCNAs. Intuitively, that doesn’t seem enough. My understanding is that the Japanese routinely plant 2000 or so from each cross, but that’s generally PCNA x PCNA.
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The reason we’d want LOTS of seedlings is that while 5% will be PCNA, they will vary in flavor and hardiness. So we might want 2000-4000 so that ~100-200 would be PCNA.
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You make a great point about the cold-hardiness of JT-02 possibly being degraded by the cross, but JT-02 retained virginiana-style hardiness despite its Taishu parentage. Maybe this hardiness can be retained in some of the offspring of a single backcross. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect that 5% (5-10) would retain JT-02’s genes for cold hardiness. Maybe that’s optimistic but I’m encouraged by the fact that the cold hardiness of JT-02 was not compromised by its Taishu parentage.
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Given the parentage, most of these 5-10 varieties should be tasty.
Make sense?
p.s. I would agree with you that any other proposed crosses would get exponentially more difficult,
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I believe that ‘Lena’ was a selection from the wild near Mitchell, IN, where the annual IN Persimmon Festival is held.
IIRC, it was shortened from ‘Mitchellena’ to just Lena.
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jrd, not to get lost in the math, but say 5% of the seedlings are homozygous 6 pcna, that means 100 out of 2000 seedlings. Lets estimate that 50% of those will have good cold tolerance so cut it to 50 seedlings that are homozygous 6 pcna and cold tolerant. Now cut for large size and good flavor and the probability is that we would have about 10 to 15 seedlings left. This just illustrates that a very large number of seedlings are needed to do a significant level of selection. Don’t forget that selection for tree size and other production traits will be needed.
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I’m waiting for the land connected to mine to come up for sale.
Thanks for your help, guys.
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Yeah, I agree totally. I think your numbers are broadly consistent with mine. I was more conservative on cold tolerance than you but I was more optimistic on flavor and ignored fruit size. My assumptions, which would have to be validated, are that (1) as both JT-02 and Taishu taste great, their hybrid will also taste good; and (2) as the hybrid will be 75% Taishu, its size will generally fall somewhere between JT-02 and Taishu. That’d be fine, I think.
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Where is Taishu for scionwood located in the USA? I did a keyboard (press control + F) to search Cliff’s document and he doesn’t have it.
To my knowledge, it’s not generally available here. Maybe England is growing a tree but not selling pieces.
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I have his orchard layout document. He doesn’t have it.
I’ll double check and email. thanks…
I think Lena should have just been called the Slaughter persimmon. Tomatoes have Bloody Butcher and apples have Bloody Ploughman 
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It sounds like someone might need to get in contact with a grower in Takamatsu City, Ayagawa Town to request a bit of wood…
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A quick dive into history won’t hurt, I guess. “Persimmons for Everyone” a book written by Eugene and Mary Griffith with additional chapters by J.C. McDaniel was published 40 years ago. It was the time when James Claypool was active in breeding. The book is mostly full of recipes, but Mr. McDaniel wrote some review on the cultivars available at that time as well as his attempts at hybridizing. I had obtained the print copy from late Jerry Lehman some 10 years ago. Here are few excerpts from the book:
This is what’s left of Josephine:
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Awesome. Thanks.
This documents your point that it is basically impossible to cross virginiana x kaki without extraordinary measures.
Would you agree then that the shortest path to a full PCNA hybrid would require two steps: (1) create a virginiana x J-PCNA kaki cross by whatever heroic means necessary, then (2) back-cross the offspring to a J-PCNA kaki, which you report is an easier.process, provided the kaki produces male flowers?
In all cases, any resulting PCNA hybrid would be 75% PCNA overall (though homozygous for the PCNA allele). The other 25% would represent the grandmother. For example, the JT-02 hybrid daughter would be 75% J-PCNA (Taishu) and 25% Virginiana (Josephine).
Another approach would be to work with an existing Virginiana x J-PCA cross. This would then require two crosses with a J-PCNA variety, but perhaps without any heroics. For example, a hypothetical Kassandra hybrid daughter would be 75% whatever J-PCNA is used and 25% Kassandra, which means 12.5% J-PCA (Great Wall), 6.25% whatever Virginiana was used in Rosseyanka, and 6.25% whatever Kaki was used in Rosseyanks. Sound right?
Was it on me? Well, I think we can skip the point (1) assuming that we already have JT-02…but I am still not 100% sure what it is. I have it, we all have it, but there aren’t any recent photos of a fruit in detail and the tree with fruits. I’ve started to graft it by topworking old virginiana trees to speed up the process. Last year few fruits were set in container plants but they dropped off before ripening. Nonetheless, they seem to be good sized, Branches have this funny zigzag structure which I haven’t seen in other hybrids.
So, your point (2) seems to me as the way to go. Not sure about repeated backcrossing with Taishu, though. I’d try to make some simultaneous crosses with other PCNA kakis: Tam Kam x Taishu for example, in order to get another monoecious PCNA. This would serve as an alternative pollen donor and may also contribute with some improved hardiness.
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You don’t accept representations that JT-02 is a cross of Josephine x Taishu?
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I like the idea of additional crosses of Taishu x J-PCNA (e.g., Tam Kam) to create an earlier-ripening, more cold hardy pollen donor.
p.s. Re #2, the Korean breeding program has released at least 5 new PCNAs with Taishu as the male / pollinator – Gampung, Jowan, Wonmi, Wonchu, and Fantasy. I have no idea whether any of them is monoecious.
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No, I didn’t say that…I have just expressed some doubts until I see the tree with fruits. So far it looks to be a hybrid…trust but verify is my motto.
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I hate to be the party pooper, but I should point out that even if you got a non-astringent hybrid, it could taste like a dud.
I tried a few pounds of different hybrids from persimmon collector Don Compton’s place. Ross and Kassandra were rather uninspiring to me (decent size though). I’ve had tastier D. Virg. Nikita’s Gift was stellar in comparison - rich, flavorful, good sweetness. NG is probably only hardy to zone 6b.
The original purpose to use D. Virg was to confer BOTH benefit of hardiness and flavor. If you only hit one objective, then you’ve still missed your goal. If you want non-astringent, you really need to hit all three for it to be a superior alternative to existing hybrids.
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