Is chocolate persimmon astringent?

Adding 2 persimmon trees this winter, looking at a Coffee cake and Chocolate to pollinate. There seems to be differing info as to whether chocolate is astringent while firm.

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Chocolate persimmon is non-astringent. This is discussed in the following video:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_KUkcm4Y5rE

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I have seen that video but this is the description on Dave Wilson site

Small to medium size, oblong, bright red skin. Sweet, spicy, firm, brown flesh, superb flavor the choice of connoisseurs. Astringent until ripe.

Tiger,

If Tom can eat that Chocolate persimmon hard ripe and crunchy then it is definitely Non-astringent. I once bit into a hard Hachiya and paid the price. My mouth was puckered for a long while. A hard way to the meaning of Astringent.

Tony

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It is PVNA - if it is not pollinated it is astringent, and if it is pollinated it is not astringent.

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As Scott said, and if only a few seeds I would be careful of any part of it that had not developed a brown color.

Ok, thanks for the help. Seeds don’t bother me but I like persimmons while they are still firm, those should work.
For anyone who has tried them is there a big difference in taste compared to hana fuyu?

Can all Asian persimmons pollinate all other Asian persimmons? I have Giboshi, Itchi and Hana Fuyu. Will Itchi or Fuyu pollinate Giboshi and make it non-astringent?

I don’t think so, and most don’t produce male flowers, that’s why they are seedless. My Hana produced seeded fruit last year and I don’t know why. I don’t know if it produced a few male flowers or if it got pollinated some other way. The first 2 I have eaten this year have been seedless.

Does Chocolate persimmon taste better in your opinion when pollinated or unpollinated? If pollinated tastes better, what would be a good zone 7B pollinator for Chocolate? Many thanks.

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hambone, I am pretty sure Chocolate pollinates itself. I always get seeds in it and I had no male flowers on any other trees for many of those years. I have not ever seen a clear statement to this effect anywhere though.

All of the darker fleshed persimmons need pollination, they are PVNA.

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Chocolate’s best pollinator is coffeecake from what I’m told.

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In my greenhouse Chocolate didn’t seem to pollinate itself. It had hundreds of male flowers and loads of pollen but the fruit most yrs at least remained without seeds and amber colored flesh. Only one yr did it have the dark flesh. I don’t know why any of this happened. Maybe the dark yr was a yr the only other variety I have, Eureka, produced a few male flowers. Most yrs it has none but I remember seeing a few at times.

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Thanks everyone. I will go ahead on the idea it is self- pollinating, that would make life a lot simpler.

@scottfsmith - do you grow a specific variety to pollinate your Chocolate or does the self-pollination serve to make it non-astringent? If it always self-pollinates it would always be non-astringent and not PVNA, right? Sorry to be dense about this.

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When I got it I did not know it needed a pollinator, and it still always set seeded fruit. So, I never made an effort to get a pollinator even after I learned it needed pollination. In the beginning I had few varieties fruiting and I am pretty sure there were no male flowers (besides the ones on Chocolate) as the trees were small and I looked carefully. Now I have Maru and I think it may have some male flowers on it.

Self-pollination is as good as any other pollination and it makes it non-astringent. PVNA means it needs pollination (PV means it Varies under Pollination), and self-pollination is as good as any other pollination – the seeds are what is needed.

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Many thanks for your explanation Scott . I will copy this to my files. I think I finally have it! Kaki pollination has always been terra incognita for me but now think I’m seeing the light! Am pretty sure Chocolate will do wonders for my Giboshi and possibly San Pedro but I don’t know much about San Pedro.

We’re having a significant drought here on Eastern Shore Md but my older Asian persimmons are weathering it just fine.

@scottfsmith I see on your orchard blurb that you have two different strains of Maru, a Maru Wye and an OC Maru. Have you seen male flowers on both of those? Does the OC stand for something, by the way? Are there any noticeable differences (production of male flowers, differences in the fruit, cold hardiness, growth habit…) between the two Marus?

Thanks!

The OC stands for Orange County. I believe that is the nursery where it came from, under the name Zengi Maru. The other Maru is from the Wye plantation here in Maryland. I haven’t noticed a lot of difference between them, both are small pointed-acorn-shaped fruits. They are very seedy, so I much prefer Chocolate to them if you want a PVNA. Chocolate also has more flavor to it, the Maru are more like sugar on a tree.

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Relative cold hardiness and potential longevity in the Southeast are things I’m really looking for in addition to fruit attributes. Maru’s longevity at Wye makes it look really attractive to me, probably not in place of Chocolate but in addition to it. Sugar on a tree doesn’t sound especially appealing to my tastes, though. I’ve eaten other fruits with nice texture and superb sweetness that aren’t my favorites. I’m interested in grafting some pollination variant persimmons at a friend’s place which is a half zone colder than where I am (7a instead of 7b). I planted some trees there for rootstock that are the size I like to graft now. Chocolate definitely seems like one to try, but I could potentially graft one or two others. The ones that I’m especially considering are Maru Wye, Coffeecake (especially for early ripening), Smith’s Best (especially in case it would be different or better if pollinated), and possibly a PCA type just for the friend’s sake, but if there are PV types worth adding, I should probably grow those there and just give this friend PCA fruit from my own trees. Brown Sugar/Hyakume sounds like it may need a longer season, so I’ve tentatively scratched that one off my interest list. Those are pretty much the only PV persimmons I’ve heard anything about.