Is it worth using ancient trees for scion/bud wood

[tbg9b]

Just curious if there is any point in trying to take scion/bud wood from very old trees that are end of life or have stopped producing fruit to try and preserve the original variety.

I have a few fruit trees left that are probably a century old on my property. I cut one pear tree down a few weeks ago that had stopped producing several years ago. I have a much larger Barttlet pear tree that is likely a century in age that is still fairly productive. However, I can tell it won’t be producing too much longer as it is in very poor shape.

I also have two plum trees in the century bracket. At least, so I assume as they were all old trees when my family purchased the place almost 60 years ago. The original homestead was built in 1919 and I am pretty sure the remaining fruit trees are all original trees from that period. One plum is still productive, but on its very last legs. I believe it to be a yellow egg plum from my research. It is a very large oblong yellow skinned/yellow flesh plum that matures mid August. Super sweet and super juicy variety of plum that is awesome and definitely worth perpetuating.

The other variety of plum if I had to guess is an Italian which was super productive in its day, but its day is done.

Will scion/bud wood from a decrepit non-productive or end of life tree be fully rejuvenated if grafted to a young tree or juvenile rootstock? Or is it too late to try to perpetuate a tree that has already given up the ghost (so to speak).

[Masbustelo]

The age of the tree is not relevant to the new tree that would be produced by grafting or using a budding technique. The original tree provides the genetic material. Ideally, one would graft one year old shoots or buds from young tissue. If the trees are not producing new growth, you can graft older material, but perhaps with a greater failure rate. To overcome the failure rate, just graft or propagate extra new trees. Rootstock is inexpensive and you have very little to lose by trying to continue this line of existing trees.

[oscar]

@tbg9b

Will scion/bud wood from a decrepit non-productive or end of life tree be fully rejuvenated if grafted to a young tree or juvenile rootstock? Or is it too late to try to perpetuate a tree that has already given up the ghost (so to speak).

i think it is definitly worth it to try and graft scions/buds from those old tree’s.

There is a chance those old tree’s are seedlings. And the fact that they survived this long. Means they likely have higher than average disease resistance.

Even if grafted, they might be of a “lost variety”

the age of the tree has little or no effect on it’s genetic code. So the buds you graft will make new tree’s that are the same as your old tree was when it was young.

If you graft on seedlings or full sized rootstock. you might get your new tree’s to become that old again

Although i think it would be more practical to go for a more dwarfing stock or semi dwarf rootstock. Or even better, both.

You want to use 1 (or maybe 2) year old wood for grafting, because that makes the grafting easier. The age of the graft wood does not change the tree it makes after the graft heals though.

The exception to this are mutations. But those are quite rare. (all “sports”, like extra red coloured version of varieties are from mutations.)

The one thing i would pay attention to,

since your taking graft wood from a sickly tree. Select vigorous growing healthy looking young growth from a healthy looking part of the tree. Those have a lower chance of carrying a disease that might be killing your old and large tree.

There is one other thing you could consider. I’m not completely sure how important this is. Or how much you can mitigate it. But tree’s can get viruses. And they tend to build op over time/exposure. So your old tree’s might have build up quite the collection.

Some viruses are easily insect transmitted. And thus might be in all your tree’s now. Or at least after your next insect plague. But others might be harder to transmit and more isolated.

Grafting however will almost always “infect” the stock tree with the viruses the graft is carrying.

So scions from really old tree’s might be a larger risk to frankentree’s (tree’s with multiple different varities (larger chance one of the varieties is sensitive to the virus) or to virus sensitive or “clean” new tree’s.)

In short if it’s an easy option. I would sooner graft the scions from old dying tree’s to their own new rootstock than to an existing tree in your orchard.

[tbg9b]

Thank you, those were very helpful replies.

[hambone]

@tbg9b Rare apple hunter trick: a year before cutting scions go to the south side of the tree and saw off a few feet of a stout limb- at least two inches in diameter, just out of deer reach that gets good sun. That heading cut will sprout vigorous young shoots for scion cutting a year later and is easier to reach than the tip top of the tree where vigorous shoots only grow otherwise on old, decrepit trees. And yes they sometimes have to graft two year old scionwood- it works in a pinch but not ideal.

[Everett]

I personally would not hesitate to graft from “old tree” scions. I posted about this tree a few months back, supposedly one of the oldest in the county, and it is one of the most vigorous growers in my nursery right now:

[jujubemulberry]

@tbg9b

Or is it too late to try to perpetuate a tree

never too late(in the absence of disease, that is). Practicaally the only way ancient(but short-lived) cultivars get propagated. Trees sold in nurseries all over the world are perpetuated that way. Grafting an old clone to a seed-grown rootstock does rejuvenate the clone. In a hypothetically disease- and pest- free environment, it seems to be the rootstock that declines or senesces. Grafting to younger rootstock is much like how an old, high-mileage car will run like new if the engine and transmission are replaced. The engine and tranny being ‘equivalent’ to roostock.

of course this will only apply to short-lived trees(in human terms). There will be much longer-lived species that can be serially cloned on their own roots for hundreds of years, may be even thousands, and this has certain advantages, especially against dieback/severe late frosts.

[tbg9b]

Thank you all for the excellent advice. Whoa… I thought my old plum tree was gnarly, that specimen is really long in the tooth.

Cool pics.

[marknmt]

What @hambone says! As a rule very old trees aren’t putting out very much fresh, succulent growth -the kind that makes for good scions. But if you do as he says you’ll get a good flush.

[tbg9b]

The plum tree I realy want to preserve is seriously on its last legs (litterally). The trunk is seriously rotted and leaning heavily, and the only way it has kept standing for the last 30 years was because of a 4x4 post holding it up as it is ready to fall over.

There really aren’t any branches left to spare on the old gal. I went heavy on the nitrogen the last month to try and stimulate new growth for scion wood. Luckily it has worked, and the old girl has put out a lot of new growth. Hopefully I can use the new growth to try and preserve her for another generation. This tree produces fabulous fruit.

[oscar]

@jujubemulberry

In a hypothetically disease- and pest- free environment, it seems to be the rootstock that declines or senesces.

@jujubemulberry

of course this will only apply to short-lived trees(in human terms). There will be much longer-lived species that can be serially cloned on their own roots for hundreds of years, may be even thousands, and this has certain advantages, especially against dieback/severe late frosts.

Hhm i don’t think the rootstock degrades in another way than the variety. Usually in old tree’s you see the trunk hollowing out. Or some trunk damage before they die.

I think skillcult has a video going over some old research into what (full size) tree’s die of. And i remember one of the main points was, diseases getting into large wounds (getting to the main trunk.)

You also don’t see a genetic degradation from clonally propagated rootstock. If the rootstock was the source of decline/senesces wouldn’t these be affected to?

as an example, pear varieties like Bonne Louise d’Avranches can be used to make hardwood cuttings (own root) would likely not get older than those grafted to a pear seedling. Or at least that’s what i think. Would be hard to test though, since pears can get centuries old.

[tbg9b]

@jujubemulberry

never too late(in the absence of disease, that is)

These trees have been quite healthy through their entire lifespan until recently as age has caught up with them. I found black knot on this plum tree for the first time about a year ago. As far as I can tell I have gotten it all off. Funny thing is I think the black knot originated on the Asian plum trees that were only 15 years old on the property as they were infested far worse. For a European plum it has been pretty resistant to disease, to go a century with no black knot infestation (until recently).

[Fusion_power]

While I agree that it is desirable to propagate some old trees, there is a risk of propagating diseases in the process. Mycoplasma diseases (viruses of plants) are prevalent in some species but not in others. Apple for example tends to accumulate mycoplasmas readily. Walnut has cherry leaf roll virus which is deadly to persian walnut if grafted on black walnut or paradox rootstock. There is also a factor of having a ton of newer likely better varieties to choose from. Maybe my personal answer would be to propagate a few of the old variety and maybe put in some newer fruits to go with it.

[tbg9b]

I have already purchased quite a few new varieties of Pear, Plum, Peach, Cherry, and Apple. Some have been planted since the fall/winter/spring and some of my recent purchases I’m waiting till the dormant season to plant out.

I am hoping the old plum tree is not harbouring any nasty disieses. I will follow others advice and not multi-graft them onto different varieties and possibly contaminate other established trees.

I have been collecting and planting root suckers in containers from my European plum trees to hopefully graft onto them next year. So far I have about 4 or 5 sucker transplants that seem healthy and have not withered in this week’s heat wave.

If they last the winter hopefully I’ll have a half dozen or more plum root stocks to graft to. I plan to collect some more suckers for planting as long as the deer don’t get them first.

[oscar]

Do you know what variety those suckers are?

Are they from seedling plums? Or from a grafted plant?

I personally graft plums on smaller rootstock. Since plums don’t seem to like heavy pruning, and i like to pick without a ladder.

I might be spoiled for choice. But i have access to (from large to small)

-Sint julian A (largest of these)
-Wangenheim prune (seedlings of controlled pollination of the Wangenheim Frühzwetsche prune. (prune is like a freestone damson) These are seedlings, but quite uniform and on average almost all smaller than Sint julian A, they also sucker way less than sint julian A
-Wavvit and Weiwa. Both clonaly propegated selections of Wangenheim Frühzwetsche. (mostly tissue culture) Both smaller than Sint julian A and little suckering
-WUR S766 (sloe), looks really promising
-VVA1 (krymsk 1), some reports of higher pseudomonas sensitivity.

[tbg9b]

The sucker roots I have collected and planted out to this point are from a seedling of the original old (likely) Italian prune plum tree that is no longer producing. It is a naturally dwarfed tree that has grown no higher than 6 1/2 feet. I have pruned it to an umbrella shape and this has kept the deer from chewing it up and helped the size to remain small.

It is probably over 30 years old now, but seems to be losing its vigor and is cropping lightly now. I’m considering taking the tree down at the end of this winter. I’m not sure at this point though as with a little TLC the crop has improved from virtually nothing last year to meager.

[jujubemulberry]

@oscar

If the rootstock was the source of decline/senesces wouldn’t these be affected to?

@oscar

Would be hard to test though, since pears can get centuries old.

definitely hard to test since we don’t live long enough. Makes me curious if that ancient tree was grown from seed(on its own roots). And if possible to take root cutting/sucker from it and see how it fares.
Would also make a great case study to get scions from that tree and then graft onto a juvenile rootstock(that is if @tbg9b has a spare “sacrificial” rootstock), and check if scions get reinvigorated and start fruiting again.

[tbg9b]

Salt Spring Island has a very good climate for growing fruit. There are many orchards on the Island with heritage trees still producing for over a century. I suspect for trees to last that long the trees were grown from seedling. Of course with trees that old it would be pretty hard to find any evidence left of a graft union (if their ever was one).

We are currently experiencing a very unseasonal heat wave of temperatures of over 30 degrees Celcius. Tomorrow is forecast to possibly go over 40 degrees, which is to be an all time high for June.

Several of my rootsocks taken from suckers are wilting and many of my spring graft are dying back in this heat. Looks like I made the right decision to try growing peaches here. If the weather keeps up like this I may have to try some citrus trees.

[oscar]

@jujubemulberry

and check if scions get reinvigorated and start fruiting again.

i would be amazed if the scions (if not diseased) would not fruit, and act like the mother tree when it was younger.
Many fruit varieties have been propagated for centuries. So if this one accumulated enough genetic damage/degradation to no longer fruit. That would be quite the exception.

[jujubemulberry]

i see now what you were trying to say. I guess we were in agreement after all