@Palmy_Oceans, as preventative measure after you get rid of the aphids, you can also read this thread.
@Olpea thank you for the detailed information on the various insecticides I will make sure I don’t get any organophosphates.
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I wouldn’t want to give the impression that no organophosphates are safe, but as a class they certainly seem to carry more risk.
The extremely lethal organophosphate, Sarin gas, is designed to kill humans. It’s 543 times more lethal than chlorine gas used in WWI. It’s 81 times more lethal than hydrogen cyanide.
But, Malathion, also an organophoshate, is considered relatively safe for humans. Safe enough that the EPA doesn’t even have a Restricted Use label for it.
Both work on acetylcholine, it’s just one is much much more efficient in humans.
But, if you are desiring to be as safe as possible in regard to agricultural pesticides, it’s probably best to choose pyrethroids or oils (for minor pests) as mentioned above.
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Hmmm, is water poison to the drowning man. I’ve never thought of oil as a poison, but I suppose it’s only a matter of semantics. If you can’t swim, water is a poison according to this dictionary definition. Certainly oil fits into this description even more.
poison
poi′zən
noun
- A substance that causes injury, illness, or death, especially by chemical means.
- Something destructive or fatal.
- A substance that inhibits another substance or a reaction.
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The question of the danger of various pesticides is interesting and a lot of emphasis is put on the acute toxicity towards humans or mammals in general, but the risk from even discontinued organophosphates seem pretty minor compared to other things we willingly indulge in, like eating excessive sugar, for example, or refusing to exercise our muscles and cardio-vascular system regularly, or smoking, of course.
This is from an article about pesticide poisoning deaths in the U.S., “An average of 23 deaths occur each year with pesticides as the underlying cause of death, most due to suicidal ingestions”. from https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/1059924X.2012.688467?journalCode=wagr20
That’s a pretty damn tiny number when you think of all the pesticide applicators in this country, probably in the single digits once you remove suicide. Of course there’s also cumulative risks which are mostly significant to applicators, which the study I posted previously addresses. There are statistics within that study that make this exposure seem very dangerous, sometimes indicating twice the chance of getting a specific form of cancer, but when you combine all the statistics and boil it down to who is healthier and has less overall cancer, the pesticide exposure doesn’t seem very significant and not nearly important enough to neutralize the positive affects of farmer lifestyles, apparently, which hugely benefits farmer health.
Personally, I’m much more concerned about the environmental issues of pesticide use, as are many on this forum based on the comments here. Those issues are complicated but certainly informed hobby growers spraying fruit trees on their own land are likely to do whatever they can to avoid contamination that might kill bees or contaminate well water.
On that score, I think the general rule is, the less poison the better, the less persistence the better- as long as it is adequate to realize a good crop of useable fruit.
For aphids ,my first choice is a strong spray of water from a garden hose from under the leafs , as forceful as possible without shreding the leafs. Assuming a hose will reach area.
Next choice is white oil .
https://www.theseedcollection.com.au/blog/DIY-White-Oil#:~:text=White%20oil%20is%20effective%20against,development%20and%20populations%20are%20small.
I just put a tablespoon or so of oil ,plus a squirt of dish soap + quart water in a qt. Spray bottle,shake well , spray under leafs .
Don’t spray when above 80f.
I believe , most heavy aphid infections outside are caused by lack of natural predators (parasitic wasps , etc. )
Due to lack of habitat ( mowing too much ) lack of nectar sources to support beneficial insect populations.
AND. By use of other insecticides that kill these natural aphid predators.
Imidacloprid being one of the WORST offenders.
Used on one blooming plant in the yard could kill most all of the beneficial insects for ? Maybe a city block or so ??
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The main aphid problems I’ve had over the years is with vegie starts indoors or in my fake green house (no internal heat besides heated mats). They can be lethal to tender young plants- especially my pepper starts.
The species of aphids I encounter are not easily controlled with either water, soap or oil. I have succeeded in knocking them out for the year with a single spray of Assail.
I’m not sure this speculation at all matches my experience with the insecticides I use, it certainly does not apply to lady beetles which I can easily observe. But I’m not talking about a blooming plant, which would be illegal to spray with a bee killing insecticide in the first place, wouldn’t it?
Assail ( Acetamiprid) is a neonic. In the same class as Imidacloprid . A systemic .
Pepper ( and other) plants do bloom and attract insects .
So potential for a lethal dose in nectar.
I know of several local greenhouse businesses that use systemic
“ neonics” on everything !
Flowers , vegetables, fruit trees etc.
All of these plants bloom and attract nectar feeding insects at some point. Likely with leathal consequences !
Buyer beware ! , imagine you buy a nice flowering plant at such a place that has been treated with neonics , you buy the plant because the plant is known to attract pollinators. Which it does . But kills them all ! ?
These chemicals are used in the industry because they ARE very effective at killing insects , so $.
This is contrary to my present interest at this point, Which is to create better habitats for insects, the vast majority of which are beneficial , …… a diversity of blooming plants + habitat
The only time insecticidal soap has worked for me on aphids or mites is if I spray every 4 days for two to three weeks, so 3 or 4 applications.
When the Pure Crop1 literature says “Although it is made from oils, it is in
fact not an oil” and it’s “Nanotechnology that improves plant health through increased brix levels” but listed ingredients are vegetable oils, water and soap, it sounds like a marketing strategy to over charge.
Hope I’m wrong and it works for you.
Please show me evidence that the flowers contain adequate poison from assail to harm insects weeks or months after application. There are two types of systemic pesticides, one type travels through the entire plant, the other only the cells immediately in contact with the insecticide. I believe Assail is one of the latter as are fungicides like myclo.
I spray my pepper plants when they are indoors long before they even form flower buds.
Probably. Poison really isn’t a very accurate term when it comes to describing compounds which control pests. We’ve all heard the old oft repeated adage “The dose makes the difference.”
Full Quote:
Paracelsus -“What is there that is not poison? All things are poison and nothing is without poison. Solely the dose determines that a thing is not a poison."
I probably should have used a more accurate term, insecticide. Oil is listed on the IRAC list as an insecticide. Interesting they list it as unknown or uncertain mode of action. I thought it was well established oils coat the cuticle (at least for light common horticultural oils) and kill the insect by blocking it’s respiratory openings (sort of like drowning I suppose).
Most Aphids are pretty easy to kill so a powerful insecticide is probably not required but multiple applications may be required.
Edit: I failed to mention that Rosy Apple Aphids can be hard to control since they cause the Apple leaves to curl up tightly and provide good protection against a direct hit from the insecticide.
Unfortunately, not all insects are easy to kill. Plum Curculio and Peach Tree Borer are two.
A beekeeper friend explained that the EU eliminated the use of most neonics in an attempt to preserve honey bees and other pollinators but after several years no improvement in honey bee survival was noticed. Not sure if any data confirms his explanation but he has raised bees for a long time and is considered an expert in my area.
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Although i doubt spraying a single blooming plant will kill most all beneficial insects in a city block.
Hillbillyhort has a verry valid point,
Imidacloprid is a systematic insecticide with good transport within the plant. (spray half the plant and the whole plant will have Imidacloprid in it’s fluids)
And it has a relatively long half life in soil or basically anywhere where it’s not in water being directly hit by sunlight.
Spraying a plant or the ground can easily lead to high enough concentrations in pollen and or nectar later on in that plant to be toxic to bees.
In the EU one of the reasons certain neonic’s where banned for outdoor use. Was the risk of damaging concentrations of those pesticides in pollen and nectar. Even if the plants where not sprayed during bloom. But before bloom.
I don’t believe all neonics are equal and I was specifically talking about Acetamiprid. So I’m not sure how valid your point is to my statement. Maybe you can clarify it for me.
Acetamiprid, on the other hand, has been identified as having a low risk to bees (EFSA 2016), and its approval has been renewed until 28th February, 2033 (EC 2018d). With that, this substance became the only neonicotinoid that can be used without restrictions and also in open field cultivations in Europe
from https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13592-022-00909-6
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Hillbilyhort was specificaly talking about Imidacloprid. You responded to that. I responded to your response to Hillbillyhort. I don’t see Acetamiprid mentioned anywhere in that link. So I’m a bit confused where that came from? Could you explain?
Either way. I specifically mentioned Imidacloprid in my point. So that should clear up any confusion in reference to what pesticide that was.
The mechanism. A systematic well transported pesticide with relatively long half life being damaging to bees even if applied outside of bloom period is valid. (due to it getting into the nectar and pollen)
If Acetamiprid has a short half life in plants and or soil. Or if it isn’t transported well in plants or isn’t systematic. It should not get into nectar or pollen.
Read both comments again… more slowly. We were both talking about Assail,or acetamiprid. I am still curious about how far it travels on the sprayed plant and can’t find anything on the subject. If you have any info on that, I’d appreciate it. I have always assumed that thorough coverage of all the pesticides I use is essential.
i already did that.
Hillbillyhort was clearly talking about Imidacloprid.
I even quoted that post and highlighted it for you.
I think you should read post 51 again, more slowly.
OK, I see what you were specifically responding to although I’m not sure why.
No one should ever intentionally spray flowering plants with an insecticide, and all I was attempting to do is explain that the neonic I use is not especially lethal to bees if used properly, even if the plants subsequently bloom. I was only mildly curious about the scale of death HH suggested by spraying a single flowering plant with an insecticide I’ve never used at a time I wouldn’t apply any insecticide I do.
Hillbilly hort suggested that commercial growers in his area spray Assail on flowering plants and also that it is likely to be lethal to bees even if sprayed on plants that later flower whereas guides I’ve read suggest that bees are not especially harmed even by sprayed flowers as long as the poison is dry by the time they forage.
I’ve never been satisfied with that and try to get my customers to whack the flowering weeds under trees before I spray. I spray fruit trees after they drop their petals and never before.
What I’m hoping to provide here is useful information to folks who use synthetic pesticides. But I am still curious about the extent to which neonics spread throughout the plant after being sprayed.
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And what, in the case of grey squirrels is that solution? I don’t imagine you’re Elmer Fudding it around people’s estates plinking them off with a .22lr
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