Most Aphids are pretty easy to kill so a powerful insecticide is probably not required but multiple applications may be required.
Edit: I failed to mention that Rosy Apple Aphids can be hard to control since they cause the Apple leaves to curl up tightly and provide good protection against a direct hit from the insecticide.
Unfortunately, not all insects are easy to kill. Plum Curculio and Peach Tree Borer are two.
A beekeeper friend explained that the EU eliminated the use of most neonics in an attempt to preserve honey bees and other pollinators but after several years no improvement in honey bee survival was noticed. Not sure if any data confirms his explanation but he has raised bees for a long time and is considered an expert in my area.
Although i doubt spraying a single blooming plant will kill most all beneficial insects in a city block.
Hillbillyhort has a verry valid point,
Imidacloprid is a systematic insecticide with good transport within the plant. (spray half the plant and the whole plant will have Imidacloprid in it’s fluids)
And it has a relatively long half life in soil or basically anywhere where it’s not in water being directly hit by sunlight.
Spraying a plant or the ground can easily lead to high enough concentrations in pollen and or nectar later on in that plant to be toxic to bees.
In the EU one of the reasons certain neonic’s where banned for outdoor use. Was the risk of damaging concentrations of those pesticides in pollen and nectar. Even if the plants where not sprayed during bloom. But before bloom.
I don’t believe all neonics are equal and I was specifically talking about Acetamiprid. So I’m not sure how valid your point is to my statement. Maybe you can clarify it for me.
Acetamiprid, on the other hand, has been identified as having a low risk to bees (EFSA 2016), and its approval has been renewed until 28th February, 2033 (EC 2018d). With that, this substance became the only neonicotinoid that can be used without restrictions and also in open field cultivations in Europe
Hillbilyhort was specificaly talking about Imidacloprid. You responded to that. I responded to your response to Hillbillyhort. I don’t see Acetamiprid mentioned anywhere in that link. So I’m a bit confused where that came from? Could you explain?
Either way. I specifically mentioned Imidacloprid in my point. So that should clear up any confusion in reference to what pesticide that was.
The mechanism. A systematic well transported pesticide with relatively long half life being damaging to bees even if applied outside of bloom period is valid. (due to it getting into the nectar and pollen)
If Acetamiprid has a short half life in plants and or soil. Or if it isn’t transported well in plants or isn’t systematic. It should not get into nectar or pollen.
Read both comments again… more slowly. We were both talking about Assail,or acetamiprid. I am still curious about how far it travels on the sprayed plant and can’t find anything on the subject. If you have any info on that, I’d appreciate it. I have always assumed that thorough coverage of all the pesticides I use is essential.
OK, I see what you were specifically responding to although I’m not sure why.
No one should ever intentionally spray flowering plants with an insecticide, and all I was attempting to do is explain that the neonic I use is not especially lethal to bees if used properly, even if the plants subsequently bloom. I was only mildly curious about the scale of death HH suggested by spraying a single flowering plant with an insecticide I’ve never used at a time I wouldn’t apply any insecticide I do.
Hillbilly hort suggested that commercial growers in his area spray Assail on flowering plants and also that it is likely to be lethal to bees even if sprayed on plants that later flower whereas guides I’ve read suggest that bees are not especially harmed even by sprayed flowers as long as the poison is dry by the time they forage.
I’ve never been satisfied with that and try to get my customers to whack the flowering weeds under trees before I spray. I spray fruit trees after they drop their petals and never before.
What I’m hoping to provide here is useful information to folks who use synthetic pesticides. But I am still curious about the extent to which neonics spread throughout the plant after being sprayed.
And what, in the case of grey squirrels is that solution? I don’t imagine you’re Elmer Fudding it around people’s estates plinking them off with a .22lr
This saved my business. I assure you it works. As soon as I’m finished with spring sprays I install 100’s of these. It is a royal PIA but not as painful as losing the crop. The worst of it is dealing with the oil-grease mixture I paint them with- especially when dismantling them after harvest.
@alan
In my somewhat ambiguous post above I was mostly referring to
Imidacloprid, but also neonics = Neonicotinoids in general, not necessarily Assail .
Assaill looks to have a much lower toxicity to bees , by orders of magnitude.
But is highly toxic to
Birds
Earthworms
Parasistoid wasps
And predatory mites
Half life in soil 30-450 days
Evidence ,.quote , Alan…
(“succeeded in knocking them out for the year with a single spray of Assail.”)
It’s fine, I think the discussion helped anyone interested understand the difference in various neonics on several fronts, including how the EU regards them. Assail is still accepted.
Still, it isn’t a question of what non-targeted species it is toxic to, but what the dangers are to them if it is applied according to label instructions. I assure you that my using it never ends up with having dead worms at the base of trees, even though the pesticide begins to drip once adequate coverage is achieved. Earthworm activity in my orchard and nursery is extremely robust because I mulch all my nursery trees and many of my orchard trees with wood chips.
As I said before, I usually only spray insecticide twice in the orchards in the spring, so whatever I kill should have plenty of time to rebound to previous population levels. They have all of summer and fall to do so.
All poisons will kill a certain number of non-targeted species and one must weigh benefits to the consequences in all types of pest control. I help produce tons of food from land that was previously nothing but mowed sod- that provides habitat elsewhere that is far more ecologically diverse than any farmed land.
As far as killing birds, I don’t spray nests when I see them, but have accidentally sprayed them and still have seen birds successfully hatch their eggs.
I prune trees open enough that it discourages birds from nesting in the trees I manage in the first place.
Assail will not knock out aphids for a year. It has translaminar activity, but does not move much within a plant. It is used as a foliar application unlike other neonics. I agree with you about overuse of soil applied neonics being an issue though. The only foliar applied systemic insecticide for aphids that I know of it spirotetramat, which is supposed to very safe for pollinators.
I’ve wondered off and on over the years about the utility and efficacy of home brewed pesticide sprays based on soaked and/or fermented tobacco leaves. Another thing that sounds promising is paw paw foliage. Apparently those annonaceous acetogenins are pretty effective insecticides.
Whether either of these would show any advantage as compared to traditional sprays is an open question. I’m pretty much a skeptic, and not overly concerned with golden calves. There is a case to be made for whole plant products being more effective than their derivatives in certain cases, though. I’m thinking of Neem in particular.
There’s some really interesting stuff being done with JADAM farming, an offshoot of Korean Natural Farming, and it relies heavily on fermentation of vegetable matter. There seem to be synergistic effects of promoting beneficial microbes and deterring pests and diseases through these methods. It would be interesting to play, I think. The idea of providing some measure of control and perhaps limiting collateral damage has its appeal at the home and even small commercial scale. Not saying these would work that way, but wondering if anyone has info or practical experience to bear on the subject.
I may not have explained my claim adequately. What I meant was that all I need is a single spray of Assail to control the aphids of plants in my greenhouse that are subsequently planted outdoors where aphids are rarely a problem anyway. This only requires that aphids not return for a month or two and the point is that it completely knocks down the existing populations that have usually been brought indoors by some other plant I was overwintering since the previous fall. If some new aphids managed to arrive on site, of course assail wouldn’t control them after a couple of weeks or so, but that’s not happened. .
Actually I very much appreciate the info you brought with your comment, it was exactly what I was looking for. It was what I thought but couldn’t find the info to back it up when someone else suggested much greater mobility within the plant. Thank you.
uote=“Evenfall, post:71, topic:53638”]
It has translaminar activity, but does not move much within a plant.
[/quote]
My aphids are relentless. Even persist with several doses of surround and an initial dose with imidan. I spray heavy on the underside and they switch to the top.
