Japanese Plum - frost hardy - early ripening?

General Fruit Growing
#21

No need to yank Mt Royal. It is a good, tasty plum. I happen to have others I like more.

@galinas has grown it for several years. She probably can give you more accurate assessment.

I don’t know if you have used a search function on this forum.
It’s the looking glass symbol on the top right corner of the page.
Click on it and put in the key word like “Shiro” or “Mt Royal plum”
There will be several threads about it.

I prefer reading assessments or comments from forum members to descriptions from nurseries. Those nurseries want to sell their fruit trees. The descriptions of their trees are alway positive but not always accurate.

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#22

I don’t know.Most of my reading about Alderman,didn’t leave me enthused.
@warmwxrules may have or had a tree.

#23

I was doing some research to see which plums would do well here in Montana’s brutally harsh, short-season climate. We have late-spring and early-winter frosts and freezes (perhaps similar to yours), and I decided to buy some Toka and Waneta plum scions for grafting onto on Krymsk 1 rootstocks. I am surprised no one mentioned Waneta above, because it is regularly noted to be a good pollinator/pair with Toka. Since both varieties are said to do well in Alaska, I assume they should both do well here too. As for the Krymsk 1 dwarfing rootstock, the Orange Pippin website says:

"VA-1, also known as Krymsk 1, is a new dwarfing rootstock for plum trees. It was developed in Russia and released in 2004. It is related to Prunus cerasifera, the Cherry Plum - a species of plums which have naturally smaller trees than other plum species.

VVA-1 is important because it offers the potential to produce a smaller plum tree than the Pixy rootstock which has hitherto been the most dwarfing rootstock available for plum trees. Whilst Pixy is a valuable rootstock, it still produces a relatively large tree, typically around 2.5m - 3m in height, putting it in a similar category to the apple M26 rootstock. VVA-1 should produce a mature tree of around 2.5m height, suggesting it is slightly (but usefully) less vigorous than Pixy…

VVA-1 also induces precocity, in other words the new tree will start to fruit at a younger age in its life, around 2-3 years instead of the more usual 3 years. It also offers the advantage over Pixy of producing fruit of a good size, similar to fruits produced using the semi-vigorous St. Julien rootstock.

The main disadvantage of VVA-1 is that there is relatively little experience of its performance outside of research stations. It has the potential to be a great rootstock for gardeners looking to fit plums, gages, and damsons into a small space."

The Raintree Nursery website says:

" An excellent choice for home orchardists, the rootstock produces a tree about half the size of standard and it has shown excellent results when grown in heavy soils, acid or alkaline. Very little suckering observed."

Several other resources say the Krymsk 1 produces larger than average fruit sizes, when compared with other rootstocks, and it is cold-hardy, recommended for Northern climates. It is also said to need extra care in the first growing years, requiring moist soil, fertilization, & etc…

I think Raintree has some Krymsk in stock $5 each. I bought my Toka and Waneta scions and the rootstocks from Maple Valley Orchards, but they are sold out of the rootstocks and Waneta scions, and only have the Toka scions remaining.

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#24

From what I got for all those years - less than a small size bowl of plums - it is tasty, right. But it just refuses to flower despite all my dancing with tambourines around it. It is also an aphid magnet. I gave it last year. If it doesn’t flower well this year - it will be its last spring.

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#25

I have Alderman and as grown here, I’d say it’s a very good plum. Furthermore, I find it vigorous, productive and strongly disease resistance. The open flowers seems to have above average frost tolerance. Alderman’s disease resistance has moved it up into my top tier of keepers. I have grown quite a few of the so called cold hardy types, such as La Crescent, kahinta, Pipestone, Black Ice, Waneta, Gracious, Ember, Underwood, Hanska, Purple Heart, Kaga, Pembina, Superior, Tecumseh, and Cocheo. The survivors are La crescent,Purple Heart, Alderman and Superior. All others failed the late summer heat of August and September.

Edit: I grow around 60 varieties of modern, heirloom and interspecifics type stone fruits, so Alderman plum has some stiff competition in order to measure up.

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#26

You are in zone 7. There is no need to look for extra hardy rootstocks. Your issue is the climate you are in. It is warm up by late winter/early spring which can be followed by late frost. Late blooming plums are what you are looking for. In my experience many J plums seem to bloom early.

I am in a colder zone but our spring weather does not yo-yo as often as yours does so I don’t lose plum crops that often (knock on wood)

@thecityman ,aka Kevin is in middle TN I think. He has grown plums for many years. Hope he will chime in to share his experience. So do others TN members, I hope.

#27

Near St. Paul my most successful plum so far has been Waneta. Alderman is very similar, but much less prolific. My Pipestone, La Crescent, black ice, Mt. Royal, and Toka have had heavy blooms, but very sparse crops. I tried planting some wild plums amongst them, but they haven’t grown much yet. I now have a young superior, so we will see how it does. Also a successful kahinta graft.

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#28

Now that I have decided to give up on Peaches (removed all 3 trees a few weeks ago)… my mind is drifting back to Plums again. Got rid of peaches because of pest (OFM) and disease (BR) issues… eventually just got to be too overwhelming – and I “do not spray” which makes those pretty much impossible to overcome.

So now back to THINKING more about Plums.

In my first post above I explained my experience with Plums… (J and EU types)… and my EU Plums are now in year 6 and still no blooms, no fruit. I will not plant a EU plum again ever… don’t like waiting that long for something to produce… I will leave these two for someone else to eat (I expect).

The demise of my J Plums was our rather frequent late frosts and the fact that the two J Plums I had started blooming Mid Feb. They must have been extra early bloomers (varieties unknown at this point).

In the thread above, Shiro was mentioned as often producing some fruit even with late frosts… and @mamuang mentioned Satsuma was known to be a good pollinator.

But @IL847 - said Shiro was the first plum to bloom in her orchard… which makes me think our late frosts will not be good for it.

This takes me back to considering the Alderman plum (american-japanese hybrid)…

Superior and Tonka (also american-japanese hybrids) are mentioned above as a possible good pollination pair. Most nurseries recommend those for pollination…

One Green World says…
Shiro - blooms in March
Tonka - blooms in March
Superior - blooms in late March

Gurnies says that Shiro is 2-Early, Superior and Alderman are 3-Mid (on Bloom time).

And reading post here on Alderman I found this one… from @nil who is in Zone 8b

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If Alderman does bloom for me here in 7a, just a week or two later than Superior and Toka… that might make a significant difference in my late frost issue.

@jaypeedee - had some good comments on Alderman in (zone 8b also) above… (very good plum) - top tier keeper.

Sounds like it can deal with the heat and humidity… which I have plenty of that too.

I would like to ask jaypeedee and nil… (or anyone else that knows)… if you know which of your other J-plum varieties or A/J hybrids, bloom at the same time as your Alderman plum trees ?

Many nurseries list Alderman and Superior as pollinators… but per Nil above Alderman bloomed later than her Superior in z8b.

I found these comments by a staff member of Starks online…

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Which list some other J/A hybrids… Waneta, Pipestone, Underwood… are any of those known to bloom later than Superior (perhaps with Alderman) ?

Edit - add later… just found this pollination chart for (J and J/A hybrids) at BurntRidge…

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They do not have Alderman in their list… but do have Superior and Toka listed as Mid bloomers…
and Beauty and Elephant Heart J-Plums as Late Bloomers.

If Alderman blooms significantly later than Superior (in Zone 8b)… perhaps Alderman & Beauty would be a good pollination pair ?

Ok… still researching and found this a bit later…

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That is from Summit Tree Sales (Michigan)… much more North than me… and they are saying Alderman pollinates with Superior and Blackice (Hybrids).
They did not have Beauty J-plum in their list.

Thanks
TNHunter

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#29

I’m thankful that you did all this work. I’m saving it so I can spend more time reading it. I have three plums and have never gotten more than one or two fruits from them due to late frosts. They are decently large trees too I’m in 6b Shenandoah valley of Virginia.

They have a good root system. I’m thinking about top working them.

Then again, some trees rise to the occasion and change my mind I love Asian pears but had never had one due to late frosts. This year I have at least 5 or 6 pears on every variety. I can’t wait to compare them.

#30

I have tried to find a Plum Pollination chart from a South Eastern nursery including J and J/A types…

No luck so far… still researching.

I may just have to get a Alderman and Superior or Toka… and then graft other varieties (Beauty, Elephant Heart) onto them until I get good pollination. I could do that…

#31

I agree with checking your extension recommendations for your area. They should have the most reliable info.

#32

@Wisner and @mamuang — I have tried that… no luck finding any recommendations on plum varieties for TN there (yet).

Here is the abundance of info I found on extension.tennessee.edu…

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Perhaps I need a Stanley… (oh well, scratch that) it is a Eu Plum. Not planting that.

#33

My three most reliable plums in the face of untimely frost are Methely, Shiro and Reema. Methely is a black knot magnet and can really increase disease pressure for plums nearby. Reema is more susceptible than the other two to bacterial spot but it is also better tasting by my palate- first class.

#34

I’m uncertain about frost hardy,but from reading,Ozark Premier,Bruce and Spring Satin Plumcot are supposed to do well in the southeastern US.

#35

I have a vigorous graft (whole large branch) of Beauty Japanese Plum. It has produced quite well for me a few years in a row even though we’ve had late frosts. Not sure why, because it is not a particularly late bloomer for me, at least not compared to Euro plums. Maybe they have lots of straggler blooms, IDK. They are ripe right now in Ohio, about 10 days before Redhaven peaches. They taste like a decent supermarket plum in my area. Probably would be better in a warmer climate.

#36

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Another bit of info found on the TN extension site, in a publication article.

“frosts a point of concern” they have that right. Not widely grown in TN… right the frost almost always does them in.

In the 13 or so years my earlier mentioned J Plums were here… I noticed no pest or disease issues.
Perhaps because they hardly ever fruited successfully ? The pest did not have time to find them ?

For those of you who successfully grow Plums and Peaches… would you say they both require about the same amount of maintenance, sprays and such… or are good plums possible with no spray ?

If they bloom here in Feb (like my earlier ones did)… 1 good crop in 13 years.
If they bloom mid-late March… (like my peaches and apples) I should get fruit about every other year.

If I had Plums only ever other year… perhaps that would help keep the pest issues down.
I could live with that.

#37

It looks like they will not be consistent producers in your area. Hit or miss, maybe a good year, maybe nothing the next.

#38

@Bradybb - thank you for the thought of searching for plum varieties known to do well in the southeast.

No luck finding anything recommended from TN ag… but did find this from Auburn University (AL).

…
In the most recent 10-year study on plum varieties in Alabama, results have been disappointing in regard to consistent production. Because of the poor cropping record demonstrated in these studies and in orchards, plums remain a very marginal commercial crop in the Southeast. Even the best of varieties fell short of sufficient yields to make them consistently profitable in this most recent 10-year study.

Home gardeners may still wish to grow some Japanese dessert plums even though they realize significant cropping may occur only half the time or less. Therefore, varieties that are worthy of AU-Cherry (self-fertile), AU-Roadside, AU-Rosa, AU-Rubrum, Crimson, Homeside, Byrongold, Robusto (suitable only as green plum), Morris, Ruby Sweet, and Black Ruby. Ozark Premier, although trees are usually short lived, can provide a few seasons of excellent fruit. Homeside has a lot of Ozark Premier characteristics including good flavor.
…

They mentioned Ozark Premier…

Here is the description from Starks on Ozark Premier…

Grow giant, sweet and juicy plums. A great plum tree for the Ohio Valley, the Northeast, and the Midwest. Fruit is firm and excellent for cooking, canning, and fresh-eating. Bears young. Offspring of Burbank x Methley. Heat-tolerant. Semi-freestone. Introduced by the Missouri State Fruit Experiment Station in 1946. Ripens in August.

I applied Bold to some of the things I like.
I understand that is nursery talk, but sounds good.

They list Alderman as a Pollinator…

I may just have to try that pair.

Thanks

#39

From GA… just south of me…

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The image above only includes the two varieties that they rated Very Good on Health and Quality.

Gurneys (not my fav nursery) but they list both of those… some of their comments below.

Ruby Sweet Plum Tree

Huge improvement over Stanley European plum.

  • Improved flavor and disease resistance
    *** Good performance in the South**
  • Ripens in late summer

Sweet and juicy; does well across the South. Ruby-red flesh melts in your mouth. Developed by USDA in Georgia. Ruby Sweet is a huge improvement over old Stanley plums in flavor and disease resistance. Zones 6–8.

Au-Roadside Plum Tree

High yields and excellent disease resistance.

  • Self-fruitful, semi-clingstone variety
  • Excellent for fresh eating
  • Yields up to 120 pounds of fruit

Enjoy high yields of luscious fruits with dark red skin and flesh. A good choice for fresh eating. Developed by the Alabama Agricultural Experiment Station, Auburn University, Au-Roadside is resistant to black knot, bacterial canker and bacterial fruit spot and tolerant to plum leaf scald. Self-fruitful. Zones 6–8.

Note they say it is self fruitful, but the GA extension document says No on that.

#40

Spring Satin was bred in Ga. and they claim it is good for south east conditions. For me in Va the biggest problem is brown rot.

I just put in AU Rosa. The companion to the others you mentioned. Interested to see how it does.