Jumping on the spray wagon

murky,
If Pear Blister Mites are the only thing bothering your Seckel,Sulfur might be all that is needed.
I used the micronized version,during full bloom,for a couple years,with only one spraying and they were gone.

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Phew! I almost didn’t want to use up my expensive jug of copper soap.

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Copper has been used as a fungicide in grapes since the mid 1800’s in Bordeuax mix which is a combination of copper sulfate and lime. Copper in this form is very soluble, can be washed off by rain quickly and has a reputation for burning plant material

Fruit trees are normally sprayed with some form of “fixed” copper which is much less soluble in water. These include products like “Cuprofix Ultra Disperss), copper oxide (e.g., Nordox), copper hydroxide (e.g., Kocide, Champ), copper oxychloride sulfate (e.g., COCS), and copper ions linked to fatty acids or other organic molecules (e.g., TennCop, Cueva).” Some forms of copper are certified as “Organic” by the ORMI.

Is the use of fixed copper as a fungicide on fruit trees safer for the environment than a more modern synthetic material, or perhaps multiple applications of synthetic materials?

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I was just using it as a general fungicide on everything I have while in dormancy, since fungus is my largest problem. I’ve got the Brandt product but the instructions tend to swap between gal/acre and gal and gal/100 gallons randomly.

It was my first time ever using it. My earliest plants are waking up so I wanted to get the lime sulfur/oil combo out. I’ll likely spray again soon without the added oil. I hit something that had some green growth deliberately to see what would happen. If there is no damage it shows that my dilution was too much.

True. Most trees die because of their roots are dead. If just foliage dies, the roots can push out a flushing of new leafs.

It indeed, worms and soil life are very important part of plants’ wellbeing.

I respected disagree. Copper existing in leafs and seeds, as well as in cell wall(some research suggests). When we harvest fruits, we take small amount of copper away from the area. When the wind blows the leafs off in the fall(or we do fall yard cleaning) , it takes small amount of copper away from the area.
Copper is movable from soil into the plants in soluble form. Copper is immovable between the plant’s leafs. Copper is immovable ,or movable depends on other conditions in the soil. As long as copper salt is soluble in water , it can be washed away from one place to another by the rain.
Since the plants use very little amount of copper and we are not using large dose of copper in the spray, the copper toxins really isn’t a big issues for home garden/home orchid. IMO

That’s encouraging. By the time its in full bloom, it should have been long enough since the oil that I can spray sulfur. And I don’t mind russeting.

So will wetting down the flowers with sulfur spray during full bloom affect the fruit set?

A verry intresting point your making here.
And also somting that somtimes worries me about more organic or “natural” farming practises. I know some die-hard food forrest people. And although what they describe sounds like an utopia.

The amount of food/acre they are producing is 1/2 to 1/5th of other agriculture. In an densly polulated country you would have to cut down all remaining forrest to just switch over a small % of your agriculture to food forrests.

In the end the planet earth is relativly small compared to how much humans there are on it now. You can change that a little by using more efficient agricultural practises.
However most things in agriculture that give you more yield/efficiency today have a long term cost.

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You are singing to the choir.

I wanted to briefly chime in on the discussion of heavy metals. My primary job at work is building/maintaining/testing water treatment systems for abandoned coal mine drainage. The metals we primarily test for in Western Pennsylvania are Aluminum, Iron, and Manganese. Copper, rare earth metals, selenium and a few others are found in much smaller concentrations in the “sludge” that we capture. The process goes in succession based on pH, as follows. Around 3.5 pH, “low pH” iron is formed by reactions with iron fixing bacteria (or “bugs” as we field folks like to call them). At around 4.5 pH, aluminum precipitates, and around 7 pH “circumneutral iron” oxidizes and precipitates out of the water as a solid. Around 10-11 pH, manganese oxidizes and precipitates out of the water.

There have been some bench scale facilities (only a few million dollars invested) to process the solids that form (primarily the low pH iron) to quantify the amount of rare earth elements, silver, gold, copper etc that form alongside the reactions that oxidize the iron in the water. It is VERY expensive and a complicated process to perform these steps, but I don’t think copper falls high on the list.

As was previously mentioned, aluminum is probably a non issue at or above a 5 pH. Below, it’s possible that it may become water soluble, however I don’t believe it is as bad as copper can be at high levels. It will still turn a pond the color of a tropical blue lagoon (very pretty if you don’t realize what it is).

Chemistry is not my strong suite, but I am pretty good at keeping limestone clean! I hope this contributes something meaningful to the conversation.

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The tree I sprayed was a Chojuro and the fruit needed to be thinned.

Technicaly your removing extreemly small amounts of copper everytime your removing leaves and fruits from your growing soil’s tree’s.
However most plants and tree’s only have “high” concentrations of coppers in the roots. And you don’t “harvest” the roots. In fruits and leaves the PPM copper is almost always lower then in the soil.

So your removing less copper by removing 1 lbs of dry leaves, than by removing 1lbs of soil.

Your technicly also removing copper every time soil sticks to your boots when walking away from your orchard. However this won’t measurable make any pratical difference over a span of 10000+ years in the soil copper content.

So practically your not removing copper from your system. The export amounts are so insignificatly small that you won’t see a measurable difference in 1000s years.

What do you mean by " copper is immovable between the plant leafs?

The thing is, copper salts will disolve in “pure” water. However your not growing tree’s in a pure water pond. But in soil. And copper will bind to a lot of things in soil. Mostly organic materials. And those organic materials play an active role in nutriant cycles and soil life. And thus keep the copper bioavailable for really long times. Copper in soil is not water soluble. And thus does not (or virtually not, it will over a million years) leech away from soil with rain.

I would love to say copper is completly harmles. Scientific knowladge says not. Good news is that it’s not short term extreemly toxic. Bad news it does build up long term to toxic levels in 1 or a few lifetimes. Reason enough to use less or use it responsible.

So is there somewhere copper buildup is so bad the area was abandoned? We have been using copper a few hundred years now where are examples of what we are trying to avoid?
Also copper is here to stay. It’s not like we can make more or remove it. We can move it from one place to another. It always has to be someplace on this earth. Anyway it would be cool to study what copper did to an area and why? So we don’t make the same mistake again. So if you know of examples please elaborate on them if you don’t mind?

Land application of textile sludge is still common in some areas. This sludge contains not only copper but also metals like chromium and cadmium. If the soil PH is right the heavy metals bind with soil particles and do not wash into the water table. If I remember properly the land can be used to grow animal feed but not products for human consumption for a while.

I believe a few pounds of fixed copper sprayed on fruit trees several times a year would produce a tiny fraction of the amount applied by land application of textile sludge. Waste water treatment sludge is also routinely applied to farm land. Not sure about the level of copper or heavy metals in the sewage sludge but I expect it’s pretty high. At some point a popular organic fertilizer which was made from processed sludge had a problem with heavy metals in their product but I can’t remember the name of the product

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I met grape farmers on holiday to france, that used to spray twice the normal amount of bordaux mixture on the grapes near the roads. Since it made the plants look blue. And this detered people riding on the roads from stealing their grapes.
They saw large differences in both quality and quantity of their dubble sprayed grapes compared to single dose sprayed grapes. He also commented soil life was almost absent near the dubble sprayed grapes. grapes where in culture there for around 40 years i think.

I do not know of area’s that are abondoned just because of copper toxicity. Not because copper is not toxic. But because where copper levels are so high to be immediatly toxic. Things have gone so horrible wrong that other heavy metals and toxic substances are also present.

The thing with copper as with many heavy metals is that it won’t deal measurable damage to you today. But small amounts for a really long time. And since it stays toxic for so long, it tends to build up.

Usualy it damages soil life first. (but also for a really long time into the future) But the effects of less soil life aren’t immediatly noticeble. Then if it builds up to higher levels it becomes phytotoxic to certain crops (legumes, grapes , cereals and also quite a few leafy vegtables) And then our land use tends to switch to searching for another spot, or to a more tolerant species. Or we just learn to deal with a lower yield.
So copper tends not to lead to complete abondonment but more to sustained lower yield. Less visable but still really inportant.

Also the oldest mention of copper pesticide/fungicide use i could find was 150 years ago. And use then was really limited. Most places have had “modern” use for a relativly short time (around 50 years).

That is not enough for the buildup to lead to extreem cases like abandonment. But again immediate toxicity is not the main problem. It is more lower yield and toxicity over longer timeframes. Consider a 10% yield loss, that lasts for 1000 years. That has pretty extreme consequences. But loosing 10% yield today versus 50 years ago. It will be hard to spot/remember the difference. It’s less visible but still there.

Also drawing the line of not using a toxine only if it leads to complete abandonment of an area is an pretty extreme thing. I would personaly consider using less or not using something long before it would lead to chernobel like consequences.

I don’t completly follow you here. You could use the logic above to also justify spinkeling uranium over your cereal. The uranium is somewhere on our planet. We can only move it. It always has to be someplace on this earth. Might as well be in your cereal?

The thing is, copper that is sequestered deep into the earth or for example in copper electronics. Does not come into contact with plants or our food. So has no immediate danger in that case. However if you powder it up, disolve it and than spray it on food plants and food growing soil. Your taking somthing that was sequestered away from food(production) and introducing it to the food production system.

Excess copper concentrations are recognized as having phytotoxic
effects on the growth and development of most plant species,
usually apparent in the form of chloroses and a reduction in total
plant biomass. Some crops – including legumes, grapes, hops, and
cereals – are particularly sensitive to high copper levels.
The deleterious effects of excessive copper on soil microbes are
well established, as is copper’s toxicity for some groups of soil
fauna
Quoted from
https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/11/22/6215/pdf

If you read scientific or university or certification/agricultural institution documents. I notice that they don’t talk about if they will replace copper. But about how and when they will. And what alternative is most promising.

Some countries that export a lot of fruit that benefits from copper sprays. Have outright banned copper use. Or reduced the maximum allouwed to spray (france for example). Not to tank their own fruitgrowing economy. But to make it more future proof. Think of france, copper is really inportant for grape production (powdery mildew). But still they are trying to use less and search really hard for alternatives. In both organic and non organic culture.

Notice though that im nowhere advertising a copper ban in any of my posts. I am just advertising responsible use. And to be aware of the cost benefit choice you can make!

-if lime sulfur works good enough, don’t use copper.
-use the minimum amount needed.
-don’t mix more then you need.
-Spray when no rains are forecasted.
-Don’t spray leftover solution, just because it is left over. If you sprayed enough it’s enough. At that point less=more.
-Don’t dump exces spray solution.

i notice this discusion is draining my energy a bit. So i’ll probably leave it at this.

I would love it. If people asked for proof somthing did no harm/ was not toxic. Instead of asking for others to “prove” that somthing is toxic.

In the end it is your choice to make. And id hope youd value your health and that of the people after you and that of the planet. But the choice is yours, not mine to make.

so is the responsibility of that choice, in both searching for safety information and the consequences of the choice you make.

Edit: those last few sentences are not specificly aimed at any person(s) in this discusion. But more a general thought. I am sometimes dissapointed at how easily people/industry/governments use things without considering long term safety. And then only take action when a problem arrives. I like a more proactive “looking ahead” approach myself. I just want to say copper is not extreemly bad. And i won’t think less of anyone using it!! Nothing personal :slight_smile:

I just would like you to consider using it responsibly.

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I heard that story but you got it wrong. It isn’t the copper, it’s the lime in traditional Bordeaux mixes that make them taste extremely bitter. Now that stopped the theft! Funny, this story is so well known, sounds like a case of plagiarism to me. Well if you got it right, you didn’t. To complete the story they used this mix to stop people from stealing, and then noticed how healthy the vines stayed! The rest is history!

Anecdotal, not proof, it’s not anything really. I need documentation. Show me some news articles about it. Did you really go to France?

OK, but where did this happen? I know what they say, I need more than opinion, sorry.
You may be right on, I have not a clue? Leave emotion on the table and show me proof.

Again how do you know this? Can you back this statement? Where has this happened?

Whatever floats your boat!

This is in the right direction, but they studied industrial sites, not people’s gardens. I want to know how using garden copper is dangerous? Proof it’s not a good idea. I know large amounts at industrial sites is bad, but is using garden copper anything remotely like this? I think not. It still may be bad, probably is, but so far it sounds like we are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Since I spray I don’t use this product :slight_smile:
https://www.amazon.com/Bulletproof-Copper-Reliable-Source-Capsules/dp/B071L842ZZ/ref=sr_1_8?dchild=1&keywords=copper+supplement&qid=1614885204&sr=8-8

If given arguments and sourches at length. And i feel like i am asked for an unreasonable level of proof/evidence that it does harm. VS no proof or evidence that it does no harm.

This discusion is feeling hostile. That was never my intention. So im out.

In the edit of your post, i saw your now suggesting that im lying. A few times scattered in the post.

It feels like a personal attack. I hope and am gonna assume it was not meanth that way.

I have been to france, multiple times. Camping with my parents. Outdoor sports vacations etc.
I live in europe. Reletivly close to france. It’s not that hard to get there for me :slight_smile: And it is a beautiful country.

I see no reason why i should ly about that. Or anything else on this forum.

Same for the grape grower, it might be “a story” for you. It was reality to me. He told me those things. He thought the blue color would deter stealing. Mabey the thoughts of the thieves for not stealing where different. Or mabey the grape grower lied to me about his reasons for spraying extra. But i see no reason why he would.

i saw i posted the wrong link in my above post.
The quoted part came from

The link above that i posted was about vegtable tolerance of copper.

Not anymore approved for use on food crops. Morganite, made with human waste. Has lower heavy metals than soluble lawn fertilizer… I believe it was an urban myth about the heavy metals. The Ironite product had problems with contamination Or maybe that was myth too? Still for sale. I think another company bought the name.

The article came to the same conclusions I have. They argue the alternatives might even be more dangerous. The alternatives have a lot les research and in conclusion suggest more study be done of these alternatives. In between the lines it’s a promotional paper for the use of copper in organic systems.
They do say other systems work besides copper with this caveat
"It should be noted however
that levels of disease-control efficacy are highly variable depending on environmental conditions and on the combination of methods
used. These conclusions should be considered as preliminary
given the limited number of cases involved. "

So they have not committed to these systems and pretty much endorse the use of copper even stating no loss of yield will result if you use it correctly. They do admit it can be a problem, but that using lower amounts should solve the problem. I would say the gist of the article is to use alternatives along with lower amounts of copper as the best practice.
Which is fascinating because we have come to the same conclusion too if you read through this thread. Thanks for posting this, exactly what I was looking for.