Hello fellows gardeners,
I have a problem and I apply for your assistance. My soil was tested in laboratory and brought 4.4pH result. Same time its filled with a good amount of organic matter and the only deficiency is has is a phosphorus.
Same time I learned regardless of how good your other soil test result readings are your plants have no ability to absorb them from an acidic soil.
Therefore, to raise pH is an assignment No.1 for me.
My goal is to get it at least 6.0 which is neutral. Would appreciate for any PRACTICAL ( coming from experience) suggestions to understand HOW MUCH Lime stone and what grade of that stone I have to apply over my grapes. I mean how many lbs per a plant I have to apply on roots and for how many years its gonna work to reach at least 12 inches deepness.
The reason for asking is to estimate my life longevity vs. soil quality improvement.
To determine how much to apply you need not only the pH but the cation exchange capacity, CEC, of your soil. From that information a recommendation on rate can be made.
I’d suggest another soil test to 12 inch depth along with a CEC test. Have that done at a place that will then give a rate requirement for grapes. Most labs give application recommendations.
A pH of 7 is neutral. 6 is slightly acidic and probably a good target for grape soil.
If your current soil test results also have CEC data, you should be able to find an online site that will give an application rate estimate. Even without CEC, a rate estimate for average soil could be made.
Every place I’ve had do soil testing gives recommendations on lime per acre as well as NPK per acre.
You need to follow the lab results for soil testing and follow their recommendations based on your soil type and actual findings of what your needs. I am one to use a state’s extension service for recommendations based on your results. If you put out too much at one time, it will lead to magnesium and/or calcium toxicity. A ton per acre per year is the most I would put out on my soil type and retest and repeat as needed to slowly bring up the ph. But follow your soil test with advice from your state fruit specialist if you want the best advice. I haven’t come across any University specialist who wouldn’t mind helping a hobby grower.
Thank you. Same time my question was about how to find that link where I can see the application ratio for lime stone. As well I try to understand the lime stone grading . What those 55-60 or 60-75 digits means for the application reasons?
That is the problem : “per acre” . I grow grapes, I can distribute it directly under each plant. I don’t want to spread it around because my grape yard is on a hill. My grapes grow on “steps” .
Use pulverized Dolomitic Limestone. Lowes or any farm store has it in 40 or 50 pound bags. You don’t want granulated as the finer it is, the better it works. For converting rate per acre to use under grapes, divide square footage of acre by area you want to cover. So if you wanted to cover 50 sq ft @2000lbs per acre, it would be 2.3 pounds.
Thank you Jerry, appreciate. I got your point regarding gravitated Lime stone vs. pelletized one. I think the difference will apply to a speed of alkalinity conversion. Same time, your suggested ratio ( 2.3 lbs means 1 kg per plant) works very slow on my land. have no idea why. As I said earlier with such exact ratio I got 0.1 - 0.4 pH increase for a year.
This September I applied 4-5 lbs around each grape, gonna measure pH next May.
Another discovery I made yesterday. An excavated soil from 10 feet deep( looking absolutely the same as a top one) showed 5.8pH - 6.1pH . I don’t understand that a paradox.
If you’re adding gravel instead of pulverized powder it would take many decades for those rocks to even mostly dissolve and increase the pH. If you add 2.3 pounds of limestone dust it will raise the pH quickly.
This isn’t a mystery, soil varies tremendously foot to foot with differing lithologies and present soil microbes, it’s not even a big difference over the course of ten feet
I’m not sure spot treating small areas around plants will have the desired result. The entire area should be treated. I have spread numerous tons of pelletized limestone with a Solo spreader. It has a plastic hopper that holds about 20 lbs and a shoulder strap. Load it up and start walking.
A small spot application of something stronger will bring your pH into line with what you want. Then having limestone around them and on the surface will act as a buffer preventing the pH in the planting area from immediately (over a year or two) going back to the original pH
You have unrealistic expectations. From Sept to May I’d expect little change except perhaps right at the soil surface. To act most rapidly even fine limestone needs to be incorporated into the soil. Even then it’s going to take a year to have much effect. The good news about that is that application only needs to be done once every several years. On our farm lime was applied just before planting alfalfa. That was the crop most sensitive to pH. The rotation was 4-5 years long. So once every 4-5 years.
Should be good to operate digits in your reply. “Numerous tons” say little to me. Over what acreage ? What a result you got for a year, for 2 ? What was your soil pH and what it is now? Can you provide with something specific please?
Numerous tons through the same spreader over a decade or so. Applied to several different foodplots. Brought ph from around 6 to around 7. Took 2+ years for surface applied lime to reach full effect at 6"-8" soil level.
This isnt rocket science. If your soil test calls for 1 ton per acre for your desired ph, spread 1 ton per acre and be patient.
Thank you. Same time, I see American growers mostly use lime stone for a lawn or plants having up to 3 inches down roots system. My case is different, I planted a vineyard 2 years ago initially go at least 12 inches down. That is what my main curiosity point nobody still satisfied with a right answer : when lime stone , being applied topically, alkalinity effect is gonna reach that 12" deepness. As well, grape is a well known plant with roots go down to 50-60 ft. Another discovery I got on my land last week when excavating a wine cellar : 10 feet deep soil test revealed 5.8pH - 6.1pH while a surface soil test showed 4.1pH - 4.3pH. I try to understand how its possible and why my land has such layering pH difference.
Years.
Lithology differences probably
Dolomitic lime has magnesium in it, regular lime might be better if you need a lot of it… and it is cheaper. If you are planting “American” grapes (not European vinifera) like what I got going, they do fine in lower pH… 4.4 is pretty low though. Lime additions are sorta temporary, the soil will be what it wants to be. Coarser limestone will have a lower initial pH effect but will last a longer time.
If I were in your situation, and had access to limestone in bulk, I would probably “mulch” the base of the grapes in limestone gravel and then hand cast normal lime over the entire vineyard… give it a year or so and retest.
It is VERY SLOW and difficult to raise pH without tilling the lime into the soil, which is hard to do if you already have plants there. For lawns it’s typically accomplised by aerating (pulling cores of soil) and that kinda/sorta helps the lime go down deeper. For the phosphorus you can use bone meal or triplesuperphosphate.
Thank you. The most proficient, realistic and practical advise I got on the forum. Appreciate. It seems I went “cheap” and bought 3 tons of coarse lime stone graded 55-60. You are right regarding American grape - all survived for 2 years on untreated initially soil. Well, last year I applied 1/2 tons directly to 110 plants + 3/4 ton spraying around. This year I applied another 1 ton directly around each grape reserving 2 extra tons for next year.
Indeed, a process takes time. never expected such longevity. As I stated on my other post I made a test for the soil I extracted from 10 ft deep ( excavating a wine cellar into my hill) and test revealed 5.8 - 6.1 pH. I got confused why my land has such a layer cake pH structure. Now I have a geo cut for 14 ft height , so I can take a soil sample from every deepness and test it to learn on what deepness my soil become “normal”. I’m just curious why my land reminds me a cake. Than deeper it goes than more alcaline it is.
Thanks a lot. Same time I try not to make my further wine “plated in gold” with such expenses. I’m talking about tons to serve my vineyard.