Low/no spray CAR resistant apples as pollinators?

[Bigmike1116]

Hi All!

So I keep toying with the Idea to get some low/no spray apples to try and in one of my recent searches I stumbled across Century Farm Orchards and emailed the orchard with some ideas. I received a very detailed response from David C. Vernon at the Orchard.

I had sent him a list of 10 potential apple trees I was interested in. I told him I was looking for the most disease/pest resistant varieties on dwarf rootstock (he sells them on B9) with some emphasis on CAR resistance as I know eastern red cedars on my property are carriers. I wanted to narrow it down to 5 or so varieties with 1 or 2 good for fresh eating for my young kids. these are the recommendations he gave me:

"A lot of the trees that are resistant to cedar apple rust (CAR) are sterile or not good pollinators. In a group of 5 apple trees, I would have no more than 2 sterile types unless your neighbor also has apple trees that could help pollinate yours.

Here are comments on your list:

Arkansas Black……. good for you, storage, sterile

Black Limbertwig……good for you, not a good pollinator or sterile

Hunge……great but can get CAR

Kinnaird’s Choice…… good, but can may be sterile

Old Fashioned Winesap……. great for you, storage, sterile

Red Royal Limbertwig…….……. good for you

Royal Limbertwig……. good for you, storage

VA Beauty……. good for you, storage, pollinator

VA winesap……. good for you, storage, sterile

Yates……. good for you, may get some CAR, but not much, storage, great pollinator

others: Enterprise, Joseph

If you want me to actually pick out for you, here’s what I’d recommend:

Enterprise
Red Royal
Old Fashioned Winesap
Arkansas Black
Yates"

I guess I never considered that a lot of the more disease/pest resistant
varieties would be sterile or at least poor pollinators. what do you think of these picks? Any other recommendations?

I just want to add - Because of my very positive experience discussing options with them, I will certainly order from Century Farm Orchards when/if (lets be honest, it is WHEN) I decide to pull the trigger on some apple trees.

[Itmaybejj]

With the same constraints I eventually picked and planted one each of Pristine, Williams Pride, Chestnut, Ashmeads Kernel, King David and Enterprise.

All have survived without spray.

Without spraying most of the fruit has some damage, but I get plenty of fruit from the Pristine, Chestnut and Williams Pride that are delicious and just fine for home use, even if they look a little ragged. I haven’t gotten much of anything off the other trees yet; Ashmeads has been less precocious, and King David and Enterprise bear late enough that it seems my no-spray means losing a much higher percentage to insects disease and deer, and they aren’t setting enough fruit yet to survive the gauntlet.

These are no-spray Chestnut and Williams Pride:

[Itmaybejj]

Two last thoughts from me:

1. If you are planting 5 trees, pollination is less of a concern. You’ve got redundancy.
2. Don’t forget all the other diseases. E.g., the Purdue disease resistance list that maps against fireblight and scab (.PDF)

…but a lot of the heirloom varieties you’re looking at you’ll have to search more to answer that.

[Bigmike1116]

@Itmaybejj

If you are planting 5 trees, pollination is less of a concern. You’ve got redundancy.

less redundancy if several are are sterile.

@Bigmike1116

Arkansas Black……. good for you, storage, sterile

@Bigmike1116

Old Fashioned Winesap……. great for you, storage, sterile

@Itmaybejj

Don’t forget all the other diseases. E.g., the Purdue disease resistance list that maps against fireblight and scab (.PDF)

I’m aware of all the common diseases. I noted in a previous post that 2 of the Perdue docs contradict each other in terms of documented resistance. I prefer to reference Cornell’s Database that references multiple publications regarding disease susceptibility, which also highlights some of those contradictions.

I have done significant research and engaged with several other members of the forum regarding their more bulletproof cultivars to narrow down my selections. The Orchard I contacted specializes in apples well adapted to the humid south which should work well for me in the Mid-Atlantic Maryland area. @scottfsmith and @hambone have been very helpful in particular.

I feel like you can only do so much research on disease/pest susceptibility before you just have to pull the trigger and try something, otherwise I get stuck in analysis paralysis. the “sterile” nature of some apples was just something I had never heard of.

[Itmaybejj]

Fair enough.

I suspect part of the pollination issue here is that a lot of these old, late southern varieties share CAR resistance and pollination issues because they are very closely related. “Winesap is the parent of many other great apples such as Stayman, Blacktwig, Arkansas Black, and Kinnaird’s Choice…”

I’m curious if you are concentrating on this family on purpose for ripening date or flavor, or if that was an accidental outcome of filtering by yummy+historic+southern+disease resistance. If it wasn’t on purpose…tossing in one or two wholly unrelated and pollintastic (.PDF) July-August apples would help with both your concern with pollination and desire to feed the fam. Century has some like RedFree. [Edit: I missed “Hunge” on your list. I don’t know anything about Hunge but it probably takes care of this!] My old chart, with the sadly-not-yet-bold “something from the Winesap category” cell:

Otherwise…iirc commercial orchards are like 1/6 pollinators, so you would probably be fine anyway if you had 2-3 decent pollinators. And if you already have a near neighbor or hedgerow with a crabapple…

[jerryrva]

I like this pollination chart the best. Easy to read and gives you good and best pollination choices. Tom Burford found Shockley a “remarkable pollinator” with its strong pollen scent. However, it is susceptible to CAR and summer rots despite being a Georgia origin apple that was a popular commercial variety dating back to 1852. Exceedingly long keeper as well.
https://www.foodforestnursery.com/growing-guides/fruit-trees/apple-trees-growing-guide/apple-pollination-chart-3/

[Bigmike1116]

@Itmaybejj

I’m curious if you are concentrating on this family on purpose for ripening date or flavor, or if that was an accidental outcome of filtering by yummy+historic+southern+disease resistance.

Initially I focused solely on disease and pest resistance, as well as what varieties tolerate my climate best. Ripening date and Flavor wasn’t ever considered. There were others that I excluded from my correspondence with Century Farm Orchards simply because they don’t sell them (whatsoever or not on dwarfing rootstock). I added a few others that I found on their website that were available and might have similar characteristics. as for the historical nature, that seems to just be a focus of the orchard itself (pictured).

The chart you linked is something I am familiar with. pollination groups based on blooming times. Just never heard of trees being sterile or very poor pollinators. Based on the chart - you are right it could be because they are so closely related. They are likely all Triploid! I didn’t realize that.

@Itmaybejj

And if you already have a near neighbor or hedgerow with a crabapple

I’ve been warned by both @scottfsmith and Century Farm Orchards (in continued correspondence) that while ornamental crabapples bloom profusely, they make poor pollinators as they bloom so early that they have little overlap with trees grown for edible fruit.

I learned about Hunge here initially. this is also how I found out about Century Farm Orchards coincidentally. @scottfsmith has also written about Hunge being a bulletproof Apple in his area.

[JeremiahT]

@Bigmike1116

I feel like you can only do so much research on disease/pest susceptibility before you just have to pull the trigger and try something, otherwise I get stuck in analysis paralysis

This. You won’t know till you go. I’d probably just run with David Vernon’s list—at least for starters. This is a solid list from a man who knows what he is talking about. It gives you a pair of durable old southern triploids with one of the finest southern pollenizers (itself famous as a good-tasting and long-storing little apple), and with an additional disease-resistant diploid or two to also see to its pollen needs. If you’re not sick of apples after messing with these for a few years, you can always add more trees or branches later.

Do it.

[Bigmike1116]

Found this interesting blog post about triploid apples. As I never grew apples before it was something I was completely unaware of. you learn something new every day!

[smsmith]

@Bigmike1116

I’ve been warned by both @scottfsmith and Century Farm Orchards (in continued correspondence) that while ornamental crabapples bloom profusely, they make poor pollinators as they bloom so early that they have little overlap with trees grown for edible fruit.

That may be the case in other locations, but here it is not. Ornamental crabs overlap very nicely with edible crabs and apples in my location. I suppose that may be due to a more “condensed” blooming period in northerly locations.

[Bigmike1116]

The people who provided this info were in (fairly) the same climate as me. I’m Zone 7b/8a in Maryland, The Orchard is in NC zone 8a, and @scottfsmith is Maryland zone 7a. Like you said - I would assume it being a geographical/climate difference with you being in Central MN zone 3b/4a. I’m going to continue to heed their advice.

[CWC]

I too have not heard of ‘sterile’ apples, is his use of sterile notating the triploids?

[evilpaul]

“Pollen sterile,” yes. It had me confused for a moment too.