Martha Stewart can teach you to graft

General Fruit Growing
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Not really. The article was actually written by one of her writers.

Not a bad article for entry level grafting. The only errors I could find were:

  1. You can obtain rootstocks from garden retailers.

One could buy a fruit tree from a garden center and use that as a rootstock, but the rootstock would likely be unknown.

  1. One of the most common mistakes of a propagator is not sanitizing their tools.

Some may argue sanitation is important, but I never sanitize my tools. In videos of large nurseries grafting, I never see them sanitize their tools either.

Iā€™ve not seen any science behind the recommendation of sanitizing grafting tools.

I could see it if one is concerned about spreading viruses between trees. That makes sense, sort of like, a surgeon using clean tools on each patient. But grafting one tree? I doubt there are bacteria and viruses harmful to fruit trees, floating in the air and landing on oneā€™s tools.

If so, it begs the question, how long would the pathogens live on the tools? Fungal pathogens can live quite a long time, but those pathogenic to fruit trees are generally so ubiquitous, they donā€™t need a graft to spread.

Bacterial and viral pathogens of fruit trees are pretty short lived in the air, to my knowledge.

I bring this point up for discussion. Mine is just an opinion. Anyone have any facts they could share in this regard?

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Sanitation of grafting tools is important. I keep a spray bottle full of rubbing alcohol and spray and wipe my knife off inbetween grafting different varieties (and sharpen it). This takes me 5 seconds and costs pennies. Not practicing good hygiene is bad practice, and really inexcusable when running a nursery. Think about it - one dirty knife could infect hundreds or thousands of plants with bacteria/viruses, etc. Also having a clean knife eliminates sap, latex, dirt, dust, etc from accumulating on the blade and then getting on the open wound of the plant youā€™re grafting. Itā€™s just basic hygiene.

Poor quality nurseries tend to have poor hygiene and cleanliness. This manifests as weed infested plants, virus infections, and disease.

Germs/viruses can likely only live on stainless steel blades a very short time. If you are in the field grafting one or two trees with a knife fresh out of storage itā€™s likely not important, but working in a nursery grafting many trees one after the other, though, it matters.

ā€˜Small steps make perfection, but perfection is no small thingā€™ Sir Henry Royce

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Yikes, I feel dirty now, and embarrassed. :grinning:

Iā€™m going to challenge your response a bit. Think about it. :wink: A nursery cuts the scionwood off one tree. If that tree is infected, all the grafts are going to be infected in that nursery block, regardless of sanitation.

Rootstocks are purchased from one nursery to be grafted, virus free if a reputable nursery, or grown virus free. There are exceptions. There are known viruses in some of the Malling Merton rootstocks. But since those viruses are known, they are ubiquitous with those rootstocks. So in a block of MM(XXX) there would be no reason to prevent that virus from spreading, since all the rootstocks would have it anyway.

It is possible one nursery rootstock sapling contracts a virus, that no other rootstock has, then could be spread to other rootstocks. But that is unlikely.

If that were to happen some trees could be shipped out with the virus. Butā€¦how many rootstocks would be infected anyway because of close proximity to the infected rootstock. You may answer, not as many, because grafting would spread the virus a lot farther. But in practice, how much farther? I donā€™t accept your claim a dirty knife could infect hundreds or thousands of trees. The knife is continuously cleaned on each graft, combined with the short life expectancy of a virus on the knife when itā€™s warm and sunny. Whereā€™s the science behind the claim it could affect 100s or 1000s of trees?

I donā€™t mean to be contentious, but I could just as easily say, the knife would be clean after 3 trees without sanitation.

I understand you own a nursery. You evidently sanitize tools between each tree and firmly believe it. But Iā€™ve seen lots of videos of workers of large (what I consider reputable) nurseries not cleaning tools between grafts. Just because one does it one way, doesnā€™t offer confirmation, that itā€™s best practice.

I will grant the point that the very safest practice is to sanitize tools between grafts. But everything has a cost(risk)/benefit. I suspect the benefit of sanitizing tools between grafts is very small for very large nurseries which are virus free.

May I ask do you sanitize your tools when you prune? I would never think of sanitizing my pruners between trees, or ask my help to do so. Why? Because at a certain scale, you manage the trees as a herd, not as individuals, like a farmer. Not like a surgeon treating patients, when the cost(risk)/benefit dictates upmost hygiene is worth whatever the cost.

Itā€™s the same way, when I was a pig farmer. We had to occasionally vaccinate the whole herd for something and we didnā€™t change needles. They make needle (guns) to vaccinate large numbers of animals in a herd. Nobody, including any veterinarian Iā€™ve seen, changes needles between animals. You start with a fresh needle and keep using it till it breaks. Animals in close confinement are going to get what the next one has anyway, unless they have a strong enough immunity. Sort of like children in a daycare.

Likewise the effort spent to sanitize pruning tools between trees, results in costs greater than any benefit, imo.

I do appreciate your response. I hope Iā€™m not coming off as snarky, but Iā€™ll make an appeal to you for facts. So far you and I are mostly just trading opinions.

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Not about grafting butā€¦

When I first learned about fireblight I was told to sanitize between cuts. It was costly and/or not good for the tools and/or time consuming, but I did it anyways.

Then, last year, I read a series of studies where they actually tested in multiple settings, with multiple replicates. The sanitizing didnā€™t matter at all.

If it only takes you 5 seconds then you are not sanitizing your tools.

About grafting:

I have to imagine people dealing with tomato or citrus would be disinfecting between batches. But more like what @Olpea said - theyā€™d probably disinfect before switching to a new bundle of scions or rootstock or tray.

And if I had only one citrus tree Iā€™d definitely be sanitizing before grafting.

But when I did a hundred pear grafts on my own land with scions from the same place ā€¦ nope. I cleaned the knife every now and then.

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I sanitize not when grafting but I do when pruning. I use a blowtorch :slight_smile: When I summer prune Iā€™m often cutting off cedar rust and black knot so sanitizing makes sense to me. IMO its the easiest and most effective

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This is not true for all pathogens. Some viruses, such as the most problematic ones in grapes, are unevenly distributed throughout the plant. So budwood taken from a single mother vine can be infected even if the rest of the plant tests negative.

That said, no one really sanitizes between cuts for pruning or grafting as those grape viruses are not transmissible through wounds.

I donā€™t know about other plant viruses, but tobacco mosaic virus is stable for years.

There is a study being conducted, not sure if it has been published, where the researchers were testing each stage of the production process in multiple grapevine nurseries to figure out when young plants were being infected by fungi that cause young-vine-decline. IIRC, preliminary results were showing that there is definitely movement of pathogens between plants at several production steps. There is also a persistent issue of Agrobacterium infections in grapevines produced by commercial nurseries that no one seems to want to do anything about

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Like @snarfing, I like to use fire. A big fat wicked holiday jar candle is my go to when grafting. Admiringly, I like it historically for the wax puddle and dipping my scion trim wounds. It only takes an extra second to run my knife or my pruners thru the flame at the same time. Alternatively, the goopy 100proof hand sanitizer is my backup. It clings to the blade longer than runny ETOH or C3H8O. I just carry a little travel bottle if I am not grafting, or it is tinder box dry outside and I am summer pruning rust or black knot gummies.

I used to care way less, but what has happened in the cannabis trade circles has changed my ways to be more careful. The hop latent viriod has done a number on hemp plants. Yet it barely affects hops plants. It causes cannabis to runt out and twist and curl and not fruit. To the point that whole genetic repositories (top of the line clone sellers) have switched to not being able to sell traditional cuttings without meristem tissue culture. The cost of this has taken 20$ (us) cuttings to be closer to 100$ each. Also, the parallel cannabis cut trading community, much like fruit scion traders here, has come to a dead stop halt. Too much fear of infection.

Both the tobacco mosaic virus and the hop latent viroid can persist for years in dry plant material. Tobacco mosaic virus has been duding hemp plants a while too, but not nearly as dramatically as hplv. Hplv has forced Industry wide changes to practices in just a year and a half timeline world wide.

It would be a shame if that happened to fruit trees.

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Some really thoughtful comments here, imo. I do appreciate them. And I think Iā€™ve learned some things from the info given. So thanks to all that responded (Blake, Girl Ben, Snarf, Grape, and Noddy)

I suppose the issue comes down to the value of sanitizing between grafts when a large nursery is involved, in which my comment provoked some backlash.

In that regard, I think one should consider relative risk. I mention this because relative risk is everywhere present in our lives.

As a commercial grower, I would much prefer purchasing from a nursery, say, which is virus free tested, and carefully tests new introductions/varieties, vs a nursery which cleans tools between each graft and doesnā€™t test. This is no reference to Blakeā€™s nursery. I have no knowledge of his nursery practices, other than, as a nurseryman he is so conscientious he sanitizes tools between each graft (impressive).

That aside, it seems to me the biggest risk, by far, is for the breeding stock company (i.e. nursery) to allow/disallow devastating pathogens in the ā€œherdā€.

My personality is to approach these things from a practical standpoint, not an absolute one.

To give an example, today I made a deposit at the bank of some coin change my wife counted last night. It was 65 bucks of coins. My wife rolled all the change up in paper rolls last night.

The young lady at the bank had to check all the rolls to make sure they were ā€œrightā€.

It literally took a minimum of 25 minutes for her to count the rolls of change. 25 minutes of my time, and Iā€™m not retired, yet. According to the bank lady, the deposit was off by 55 cents, which I doubt since my wife is super precise about these things.

Freak, I keep $50K in a business account at the bank over the summer, which pays zero percent interest. We also have a personal account there.

How much money have they made off me for the twenty years my wife and I had accounts there? And this young lady wastes 25 minutes of my time and hers for 55 cents?

I dontā€™ think itā€™s her fault. Itā€™s the decision makers of the bank who are dumb. I saw, through the bank window, several walk by her and not direct the other teller, who had nothing to do, to help the young woman count. These decision makers know my wife and I have been profitable customers for them for decades. They are just blinded by an absolute policy. Heck, if I were one of them, Iā€™d tell the young lady, to give the man his deposit slip, send him on his way, and if the change was off by 55 cents, pull it out of my pocket and toss it on the counter.

I hope my analogy makes sense to the point at hand. Iā€™m all for best practices, but I think practicality should be weighed in any absolute premise.

Iā€™m not against absolutes. There are plenty of them. You jump off the top of a 100 story building, naked, with nothing to slow your decent, and land on thick concrete below, you will die. Thatā€™s an absolute.

But there are a lot of things in this life which arenā€™t absolute, and merit weighing risk/benefit. Thatā€™s more or less my point in bringing up disinfecting between grafts.

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Should have made her stand there and watch while you recounted them!!

Seriously, our regional bank has machines they just toss the coins into, and in the grocery store I worked in they weighed them. I wonder if the girl was under some sort of warning?

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I have enjoyed watching a lot of her shows. Martha was recently on a TV show and was asked where she wanted to be buried. Her reply was that she wanted to be composted and buried on 1 of her properties. This is not a direct quote but similar.

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Wow. Thatā€™s crazy. Almost all the banks seem to have those coin machines now. And I have a good friend who works at a bank and they are constantly short on tellers and completely overwhelmed - theyā€™d never be able to spend 25 min countingā€¦

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:joy: Mark, I always enjoy your sense of humor.

There was actually a little more to this story, Iā€™ll share. It took the young lady 3 tries to get the change counted. The first try took the longest. She comes back to the window (Iā€™m parked in the drive through lane, closest to the window) and says the deposit was short by something like $4.34.

Iā€™m trying to be as polite as I can in the moment, and explained how I couldnā€™t reconcile my deposit being off that much. I had 9 rolls of dimes, 8 rolls of nickles, and 7 rolls of pennies (plus 10 extra loose nickles to make the deposit an even $65).

It just didnā€™t make sense the deposit was off by that much. Thatā€™s like 40 dimes, or 80 nickles. So I suggested, as friendly as I was able (because I canā€™t stand customers who are jerks, and try hard not to be that customer) could she just go ahead and give me my coins back and Iā€™ll recount them at home.

She said she busted just about all the coin papers open, so it was back to loose change. I said, that was Okay.

Then she goes back, and does some more counting, which puzzled me because I thought we had reached a decision.

She comes back again to the window, and says she had made a mistake and accidentally left off some rolls of coins, and that my deposit was only short something like a buck fifty.

I thought about it, and explained that even though itā€™s really not worth my time to recount the money, Iā€™d still like my coins back to recount because I was curious how my wife could be off by so much. I explained my wife is a CPA and is notoriously picky about balancing everything to the penny. Sheā€™s annoyingly accurate about counting, and I wanted to see how she could be off by so much. I said all that, and itā€™s all true.

Well, the lady goes back to the other counter again (I can see all this through the bank window, and btw, there is another car behind me, whoā€™s also been sitting there an awfully long time.) The lady does some more counting :crazy_face: :rofl:. This time another lady, who is not a teller, helps the lady count. The lady comes back to the window, apologizes, and says she was counting some dimes as pennies or something. Now my deposit is off by only 50 some cents. Iā€™m thinking, ā€œWhy does this happen to me?ā€ I mean this could be a SNL skit.

I was worn down by this point, so I thanked her and said no problem, itā€™s all good, and just go ahead and amend my deposit slip minus the 50 some cents.

Maybe I should have held out for another count and had her keep counting till the deposit was over $65. :laughing:

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Yes. Last night I explained what happened, to my wife. She looked up the cost of a coin counting machine and it was something like a couple hundred bucks. Thatā€™s not a lot of money compared to a tellerā€™s time. I canā€™t believe Iā€™m the only customer who turns in coins (although it felt like it yesterday :joy:). Itā€™s a really small bank, so things are pretty slow there most of the time.

But like I said there was a car behind me for about half the time I was parked at the window. I just sat back and listened to the radio. Should have taken a little nap.

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I also learned a lot reading this. I looked up all the pathogens mentioned here. It was interesting.

The young-vine-decline pathogens (apparently there are five) sound like theyā€™re mostly spread by grafting material that has it and by bringing diseased plants to new locations. They donā€™t think it spreads by tools.

Also, growing grapes sounds really hard.

The tobacco mosaic virus and hop latent viroid they do think can spread by tools and even by plant material you get on your handsā€¦ which isā€¦ intense.

Iā€™m also curious about people pruning for ā€œcedar rustā€ - is this cedar apple rust @snarfing? Or something else?

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I have a neighbor who is a good gardener, though he doesnā€™t get around well anymore, so he quit gardening. He claimed he gave his tomato plants mosaic virus because he smoked cigars while gardening, and the cigar tobacco frequently had the virus which was transmitted to the tomato plants via his hands.

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Damn, I wish you hadnā€™t started this topic with ā€œshe who should not be namedā€. I live and work in her neighborhood and she is very unpopular with the regular people who are called on to work for her. I bet she ripped off the writer of the article. She will never be rich enough to fill up her gaping hole of misery.

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I know that in tomato hot house operations they are very strict about people who use tobacco in any form.

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Cedar apple, cedar hawthorn, and cedar quince rust. Didnt feel like wriitng them all lol

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Viruses are such a big problem in grapes that it is pretty common practice for nurseries to let customers take samples from mother vines for testing by a third party. Red blotch virus, currently the most serious viral disease for grape growers, was spread around through nursery material long before it was identified as a disease. Prior to that, fanleaf, which can cause nearly 100% yield loss and persists in soil nematodes indefinitely, was introduced from cuttings brought over from Europe before phytosanitary practices were common, so most growers are paranoid about planting infected material.

There are grape nurseries that pride themselves on being located in remote areas where no other grapes are grown.

If youā€™re in a Mediterranean climate, itā€™s not too hard as long as you control for powdery mildew. Places that get summer rain are a whole different story if youā€™re trying to grow European grapes.

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For those of you whom want to read Alanā€™s adventure, read here:

Start on post #100. Then scroll down for Alanā€™s telling of the story. This has been in my mind when I read about her in the news ever since he told us about his interaction.

https://growingfruit.org/t/arguing-to-learn/50850/126

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