MM.111 rootstock and backyard orchard culture.. possible?

General Fruit Growing
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New member but i think i spent a few hours reading posts here over the last couple of days about apples.

I just received 3 bare root feathered apple trees. It said semi dwarf so i figured i could just do back yard orchard culture and keep them at whatever height i wanted and plant them close together (3-4ft) but after looking into the rootstock MM-111 i don’t know what to do.

The space is small - 10ft wide strip of grass between a fence and driveway. Im in western WA so dry cool summers. 3-4ft is to close for MM111 but i could do 5ft spacing probably.

I usually do open center but with the driveway i was starting to lean towards central leader to get a more taller tree vs low and wide but then i looked up MM111 and it could get to 20ft tall - im not that tall. then i went down the rabbit hole and saw tall spindle and thought PERFECT… but then that system is for dwarf trees which MM111 is not.

Now im thinking modified central leader but that takes a while to form the structure then more time to fruit.

Im also reading that MM111 takes 5 years to fruit.

So if i keep this MM111 it will take a while to fruit and it might get way to big for the space. Im debating on if i should just give these away and be more careful this time next year when ordering trees ( local nursery never has any good ones that i like taste wise so i would probably have to wait to order online again)

So… is it possible keep MM 111 smaller for that space? If so would tall spindle work? I like that you just cut off the thicker branches and then done (MM111 wouldnt need any support - i dont think). I read that i might get to much wood though and not much buds since mm111 is so vigorous.

Open center i really cant do since i think the lower tree would get hit by the UPS trucks but maybe i could make it work by spinning the tree at planting so branches do not start out facing the driveway or something else?

Is there a way to do tall spindle AND modified central leader at the same time on the same tree? Form the structure/scaffold branches for the modified central leader but also have a few horizontal branches that is tall spindle? Maybe the tall spindle branches would produce a little fruit while the more permanent structure is being formed and then once the structure is formed i could stop the tall spindle branches - this might just look like a messy bush though and then take even longer to grow

Espalier wouldn’t really work since if i go close to the fence then the fence shades the trees. If i do open center or central leader the trees would be further away from the fence and since the land slopes up from the fence, the trees would be taller than the fence so full sun.

Are there any other options?

The trees costed me maybe 120 bucks so its not that big of a deal if i just wait to buy a dwarf trees next year as they produce quicker so i would probably get fruit quicker if i wait but… i really wanted to fill this space this year…

All that said, i do have a place i could put bigger trees but there is no irrigation over there and i would prefer to put these trees between the fence and driveway so that side of the yard is done with.

Sorry for the ramble but im going back and forth on this and need to figure something out so what would you do?

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Can you plant them on the other side of the fence to do an espalier or is your fence super close to the property line?

Could you espalier but start higher up to reduce shading from the fence?

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the fence is on the property line. I could do an espalier 6ft from the fence but it is the main entrance so wouldn’t that look tacky if the espalier wasn’t kissing the fence? I would also need to set up trellis or something to train the branches which i kind of dont want to do.

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Hmmm… I’m planning to espalier against a future fence, but it’s only going to be 4 feet tall and not solid for the most part… What is the orientation of the fence? Does it run N/S or E/W?

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The fence runs E/W and the trees would be on the N side of it. But the land is higher the further away from the fence you get so the fence wouldnt shade the trees unless i do an espallier that kisses the fence.

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It doesn’t matter the rootstock, you can keep it in any shape-size that you want. The five foot will work if your willing to do a little pruning to keep it in order. Many people plant two sometimes three trees in one hole.

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Welcome to the forum. M111 in my opinion is a good rootstock but it does tend to grow a bigger tree over time. Knowing that the money invested isn’t critical to your decision will help with your choice between using these trees or going with another tree/rootsock. If you’re going to keep and plant these trees I think the tall spindle would be your best choice as you remove some of the larger branches each year which keeps the footprint smaller.

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That is a small space to put M111 trees in. In regions that receive little rainfall in the Summer (like California) you may be able to stick the trees in that space. If your in a region that has good rainfall in the Summer it’s going to be difficult and I wouldn’t recommend it. So for Western WA it may be possible.

Using a tall spindle or vertical axe training system will make it easier to keep a tree in a smaller space. Open center or central leader trees will demand a lot more space.

I would take a look at this tree spacing calculator and play with the variables to see how soil, rootstock, scion, irrigation, pruning system and targeted tree height interact. The tree calculator is made for Michigan (which has good Summer rainfall) but it will give you an idea what spacing would be practical for you.

http://fruitadvisor.info/tfruit/clements/appletreespacing.htm

You really can’t do tall spindle and central leader on the same tree. You have to pick one or the other. If you targeted a 10 foot tree height and used a 5-6 foot tree spacing and the tall spindle training system you may get it to work. But you will have to prune heavily and this delays fruiting .

For that small a space personally I would look at a dwarf rootstock or a semi-dwarf rootstock like G890 or G222. I would use the semi-dwarf rootstock if scion vigor is low as it is for Honeycrisp. The scion vigor makes a big difference Honeycrisp on G890 won’t be a very big tree but Bramley on G890 will be big.

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I would start over with dwarfs. Don’t make the rest of your life a battle with the tree’s true nature. FWIW, I have MM.111s planted 20-25’ apart and various dwarfs, mostly G.41, 8’ apart.

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I agree, why cause yourself a lot of work that you probably dont have the time for. Find a buyer for your 3 current trees and purchase trees on root stocks more suitable for your location.

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On that train of thought, if rootstock was found a bud could be harvested as a bench graft from the existing trees if the same varieties were desired.

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My trees are on m111 and they grow really well. They are practically drought proof low suckering and no root problems.

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Semi-dwarf trees are able to stand on their own without support, which is why I chose the M111 as well. You could certainly grow them 5ft apart but you might find yourself pruning off a lot of fruit buds you wanted to keep. During the growing season they will want to grow to be 20’ tall so you will have to be okay with that or do some summer pruning. For those reasons maybe you could go with just two M111 trees in that space, but they have to be two that can cross-pollinate. Otherwise I think you would probably be happier with dwarf trees.

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A 10 foot diameter strip is going to be acceptable…you can keep them trimmed.

But, if they are M111, trying to plant 3-4 feet apart might be doable…but a lot of effort and probably small harvests and shortened tree life could be the best you can expect unless you have space to go maybe 10 feet apart. M7 or MM106 might be a bit easier. Also, the variety you have grafted can have some bearing on the vigor.

If your planting area is 10 by 40, I’d go ahead and plant. (Or could you plant a couple and third on other side of house?)

*Oh, if you should decide on small trees, you’ll probably have to stake them…do you like that in the front yard?

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I used to try to buy all dwarf trees. What I eventually realized was semi dwarf and standard trees are more drought resistant so I have been getting those trees instead. I doubt most if any apples or trees will do well with that spacing. 3-4 feet is the size of a small bush. My 5 foot fake Christmas tree has a diameter of 4 feet for example

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IMHO espalier looks best when it’s not kissing a fence. Discreet wire frames are very classy and give a free standing look.

Where are you located? I see you’re worried about full sun. Zone 8 AZ full sun is way different than Zone 8 PNW full sun.

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What variety of apples are in the rootstock? Tall spindle seems right given your constraints…though you’ll want to give them 8-10 ft + in height. G11 or something similar would likely be better. I have 50 g11 rootstock arriving in March. I ordered them from cummins nursery. You can buy rootstocks individually from them… something to consider…

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@CreekHollowFarm The varieties are Hudsons Golden Gem, Jonagold and White Pearmain
@Auburn yah i like the tall spindle for this reason and 10 ft talll is fine its just the stuff i read about more wood than buds but im confused on this as if those horizontal branches get cut off every couple of years at the trunk when they get to thick couldnt i just cut back each horizontal branch in summer which would remove this years growth but leave the older 2 year wood closer to the trunk where the buds form on? I would get fruit close to the trunk which i think is fine but maybe more wood than buds means i would need to prune 5 times a summer which wouldnt be that hard its only 3 trees and i would only be taking the horizontal growth back a bit.

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Pruning the top of the main leader a few times a year is easy enough… and pruning the horizontal branches also seems like it would be quick as this is only 3 trees. What i do not get about the stuff i read about more wood than buds due to pruning is doesn’t apple fruit on 2 year old spurs on older wood? If yes, wouldnt i be able to just cut the horizontal branches in half if they get to long? this would just cut off the new wood but leave the older wood with the spurs and the apples would form close to the trunk no? Then when apples produced on a horizontal branch, i migh have to cu the entire branch off IF that branch is now half as wide as the leader which is the only pruning rule for tall spindle. “cut 2-3 horiztonal branches every winter when they get to 1/2 the diameter as the leader”

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i could maybe do 5 or 6 ft spacing - as far as a lot of effort, wouldn’t i just need to cut the horizontal branches back a couple times a year instead of once? Apples form on spurs formed on older wood so that older wood would be closer to the trunk no?

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