Great advice. Go through a few litigation’s and your approach changes. Bill
Just got a call from the state. She says she may not make it until tomorrow and if its raining it will be later than that. I was really looking forward to that visit but nothing I can do but wait.
Appleseed70, everything you said is true. Also, I already thought about the fact that I sprayed a tiny bit of roundup (using a hand-pumped, 1 gallon sprayer, btw) may result in everyone saying it may have been my own fault. I want to be honest with everyone in this situation, but I’m so certain that nothing I did caused this that I was going to not say anything. However, she’s going to see it. There is dead grass around my trees. I am afraid that will be the end of things, as you said, but if she’s a knowledgeable as she should be then she ought to be able to tell the difference in damage from the two herbicides. I think she can tell on those that still have leaves and crazy growth, but on those that are completely dead with no leaves…she very well may say it can’t be proven. Then again, she kept talking about taking samples so maybe that would tell the truth.
I should also say that the rest of comments are also true. As awful as this situation is and as heartbroken as I am about it, part of me does feel bad if the farmer/mayor ends up getting in a lot of trouble. Not because of our working relationship, but at the end of the day it was an accident, and in the end it was the fault of the applicator. I know that sounds way to forgiving and when I am standing in my orchard now I often feel a strong anger and desire to inflict pain on whose fault this is, but I usually try to rise above those feelings!
BTW…it was applied just as you expected- a tractor and pull behind sprayer. I’m not sure about licenses, but I’m almost certain he just bought the stuff at the local farm supply store. I know for sure they will sell it without a license. Whether that’s legal or not I don’t know, but I know they’ll sell it. On a more positive note, the farmer/mayor is a big-time farmer along with his 2 brothers/partners. They farm several thousand acres. I know he has crop insurance because he’s used it in the past. I know that’s a different thing, but it speaks to his level of sophistication to some degree.
Thanks for all the interest, I’ll keep you all posted.
Cityman,
You have mature wild trees growing around the field. If they also have herbicide damage it will be your proof that roundup was not the cause of the damage. Also if you have several fields around the property, the examination of the weeds and trees will show which of them were sprayed. And if they were sprayed, the date of the event and the prevailed wind at this date may show the probability of the drift toward your property. I think you may want to collect this information to be ready to show it to the inspector if its needed.
I have been following your post for days now, just want to let you know that I am really sorry this happened to you. Seems it’s not very safe to be surrounded by farmland. Hope you have a fair and adequate solution with your neighbor.
Sara, I just wanted to say a special thanks to you for your kind and concerned comment. I’m not sure if I’ve adequately expressed how deep and emotionally upsetting this has been for me, so knowing people like you (and others here) get it and understand what a big deal it is really means a lot to me. As I’ve said, I felt all along that only fruit tree lovers like those here would truly understand how painful this is. Most people look at it in terms of the monetary value of the tree and forget about all the hopes and dreams I’ve had for those trees since I planted them as bare root whips 4 years ago. Most people don’t understand that I have walked through my orchard at LEAST once a day, almost every day for 4 years. Stopping at each tree to carefully examine it, get excited when they are doing well and running in and looking for help when I see the least little problem with one. I can tell you where almost every scar or blemish is on each tree, when it got there, what caused it, etc. I constantly day dream about what each fruit might taste like, when each tree will actually bear fruit, whether I can beat the odds and get fruit from some of the long shots, and so on. I suppose to most people all this sounds like I “love” my trees a little too much or that I see them as a pet-and in a way I do! But comments like Sara’s and many others on this thread tell me that many of you have some of the same feelings and really do understand how devastating this has been. This thread has therefore been somewhat therapeutic for me, which partly explains why I’ve posted so frequently and why my posts are often insanely long! It just helps having friends like all of you who understand and know what a tragedy this is. So thanks to Sara and the rest of you for all your compassion and support.
Antmary- you make excellent points. One of my most damaged trees is a standard pear that was here when I bought the property. Its about 40 foot tall and the very top of it is as damaged as the bottom of it. My little hand-held pump up sprayer couldn’t reach that high if I tried. I have some Bradford pears that look the same. Even one in my FRONT yard, which is probably 400 feet away and on the other side of my house!!! That goes to show that this wasn’t just a little overspray that went a few feet further than intended. They must have absolutely fogged my whole property.
I thought about getting weather records, but my problem Is I don’t know exactly what day they sprayed. I was undoubtedly at work and the symptoms didn’t show up for a few days, and as you can tell from the title of this thread, I had no idea what was even causing the strange growth until folks here solved the mystery for me (thanks for that, too, friends!).
If a home burns down, it’s not the temporary loss of a place to sleep and shower that slams your gut. It’s the destruction of intangibles - irreplaceable objects, but also physical representations of hopes and dreams and memories that you no longer have surrounding you.
It’s one thing for nature to do something. We expect that to happen to one extent or another. It’s much worse when the destruction is created by someone who has no excuse to claim they weren’t aware of the potential harm of their actions.I think of loss of your orchard as feeling like a loss of a piece of yourself - part of who you are. It’s not just a matter of legal ramifications and it’s not just “plants” that have been harmed. You’ve been injured and you need to heal. The actions you’ve been taking are ways of working toward that. Even though you are grieving right now, I suggest that you do keep working for the future. Plant some seeds, order some strawberries or other berries that you can put in containers or in the ground somewhere. Get hold of some rootstock and ask here for scions or cuttings, or whatever you think you can use to work toward building the future. Whatever you do, don’t let those hopes and dreams die. Losing them will only diminish who YOU are.
Besides that, I need you to keep asking your kinds of questions about growing fruit so that I can keep learning from the answers you get. When you are growing and learning, I’m learning right along with you.
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I look at my plants every day too, my wife is not that happy about it, feeling she has to compete for my attention. So being here helps discuss these things as my wife can only take so much. She was like that when I collected rare vinyl too, but changed her mind when I started getting thousands of dollars for each piece 25 years later. Although the payoff here is not going to be as drastic, and I certainly have spent the money. The money matters to me. It comes here very hard, and wasting it is not cool. I sacrificed a lot, time with my family, even health issues to earn a living, so it’s very important to me to make it last. I feel it is worthwhile and in the long run will pay for itself. Even if it doesn’t, and it may not, it is well spent! I myself would go for the throat.
You got that right brother! Messing with my garden is messing with me. Not cool at all.
Well anyway it’s a great time of year as I can work a little in the garden every day, it doesn’t get better! Well it’s a good thing you have a big garden/orchard. You still have work to do!
Now you get to replace some items, that’s always a good thing! Growing fruit is a tough thing no doubt. Nobody though could have anticipated such a huge blow, wow, hang in there!
Remember the journey is the prize. So you’re already there brother!
Those last 2 posts were just plain cool. Thanks.
I hate to post too many photos here and burn scott’s bandwidth, but if you are interested in seeing more photos of the damage to my trees, I took several more today of the trees that aren’t yet dead but which I think may be in the near future.
You are welcome!
I also check on my trees everyday since the weather warm up, first thing in the morning while hubby is making coffee. I will be devastated too if this happen to my trees. People on this forum definitely understand how you feel. Keep us updated.
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I thought I’d provide a brief update on the 2, 4-D spray drift catastrophe. First, to my great disappointment, several trees are getting worse every day, not better. Right now I have 18 completely dead, all leaves gone, brown on scratch test trees. I have about 15 more that are in horrible condition and almost certainly will either die or be permanently deformed/stunted. That’s a likely total loss of 33 fruit trees, 14 raspberry bushes (3 yrs old), 12 blackberry bushes (3 yrs old) and 5 blueberry bushes (3-4 years old). Then 21 more trees have very obvious signs of damage and have completely stopped growing for a month, though have kept their leaves and appear to be holding on. This also applies to a few black berries. 10 3 year old Grapes look exactly as they did one month ago- not the slightest bit of growth all spring, leaves all curled up, but also they haven’t died. I just can’t believe this has happened to me. It is starting to look like I’ll either have to pay for all this myself or accept new trees and bushes in place of mature ones. Its looking more and more like the farmer who did it is not going to step up and do the right thing unless I take it to court, and the nature of our working relationship (him Mayor, me City Manager) its just not in my best interest to go after him full force in court. Its wrong, its shaddy, but its life. I did go see a lawyer and he says there is no doubt that I could collect both actual and punitive damages, but I’m probably not going to do it.
The TN department of Agriculture did come, and generally I was pretty impressed with them- to a point. They examined all the trees, they spent 3 hours collecting leaf and tissue samples from every single tree, as well as other plants on my property, his property, and other surrounding property. She said it is possible that he could be fined, but since its his first REPORTED offence he probably won’t be fined. THey are going to give me copy of all the lab results in case I want to take action in court. She said that once the lab results come back (1-2 freaking MONTHS!) that they will go meet with the farmer who sprayed and search his spray records and look at all his containers and equipment. Then they will find out exactly what day he sprayed and will check weather conditions and so on. The bottom line is that they basically collect the evidence that would help if I wanted to sue, but it doesn’t seem like they themselves are going to take any kind of punitive action (fines, required training, etc) themselves. In that regard I’m obviously disappointed. Were the farmer not who he is, I would absolutely be handling this differently, and would be insisting that the state take harsher action. I’d be involving my state senator and representative, the Commissioner of AG, the Governor’s office, and so on. But again, this is a very, very tricky situation and to my extreme disappointment I think the Mayor is going to take advantage of that and end up getting away pretty much unscathed. It’s wrong on every level and I’m sure when you all read this you’ll say right is right and I should go after him and if he retaliates I could go after him for that too…but things just aren’t that simple or black-and-white. Looks like I’ve just been screwed. It’s completely deflated my love and joy for fruits. I haven’t been in my orchard more than once or twice a week because nothing is growing anyway and seeing all the damage and thinking about starting all over just breaks my heart and I honestly don’t know if I’ll do it.
I did send a letter to all the farmers around me and close to me telling them what happened. It was a nice letter and didn’t even name who did it. I just said that I wanted them to be aware that I have spray sensitive fruits on my land, that a farmer who joins me (I told them they were in no way suspected) had killed about 25-35 trees and many other plants, and that an investigation was ongoing and they might be contacted from the state.
The single most aggravating thing I have learned since I posted here is a mind blower! I found out that just last year the same farmer, using the same sprayer and equipment, killed 3 rows of grapevines on someone elses property!!! That single fact really changed my opinion a lot. Its one thing if they had no idea this could happen, its another to find out they did it a year ago, got away with it, and continued to be reckless. But no report was filed on that one. I did ask they mayor about it and he pretty much acted like it was the grape owner (and my) fault because we grew grapes. he went on and on about how grapes are just “like a sponge” and even a trace of 2_4_D would kill them no matter how careful they are.
Oh well. Looks like its just going to be one of those awful things that happen to us in life. Compared to losses many people on earth suffer I suppose this is minor. I know someone who got married and had a child and a year later their wife was killed by a drunk driver. That was the result of someone being reckless, and I keep thinking about how petty that makes my loss seem. In the scheme of life, compared to what happens to many people, the loss of a few thousand dollars worth of trees and plants and 4 years of part-time work isn’t all that big…at least that’s what I keep telling myself.
Thanks for all your concern on this matter.
Cityman,
I think you are working with the wrong people (Tenn Dept. of Ag). You need to call the EPA. They are the real enforcement when it comes to issues like this.
The attitude of the Mayor you portray is unsettling to say the least. If there are grapes/sensitive trees, the mayor needs to work with his adjoining land owners to make sure their plants aren’t injured. There are other things he can spray than 24-D. He can leave more of a buffer, shut the sprayer off near the grapes. I’ve grown grapes before and sprayed 24-D with a pull behind sprayer in my back yard (to get rid of some of the blooming dandelions) with zero damage to the grapes because I was careful. The mayor’s attitude just stinks and he is just giving applicators and other farmers a bad name. Get the EPA involved if your not worried about the mayor’s vote.
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Sounds like the Mayor has no plans to stop, so expect it next time too. I would be concerned about that stuff all over my property. Sounds like a great story for the local paper. Mayor pollutes region at will. If he takes you down, take him with you.
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Cityman, you know I’m no expert on herbicides. My knowledge on the kindergarten level of the curve, or in this case nursery school. (pun intended) But I am a label reader ( and re-reader and re-re-reader). It’s very clear on application methods, wind speeds, atmospheric conditions, and temperatures, and that drift will harm fruit trees, other food crops, humans, and other animals. Failure to heed the labels on herbicides and pesticides is a violation of Federal Law.
I was reading the EPA website on pesticide misuse and it appeared to me that they delegate much of the work to the individual state environmental agencies, but if you’re interested in filing at least something with the EPA you could fill in a tip sheet to at least be sure that they were also notified. There’s even a space to let them know whether or not you’ve contacted your state agency.
My own opinion is that if the guy has knowingly repeatedly violated the law, reports of it should get in the records of every appropriate agency. That way, if it ever happens again (I hope not), he won’t be able to claim the incident as a one off with many years of clean record behind him.
We had a total loss of our beehives in the middle of a really good spring nectar flow because of someone’s misuse of pesticides. It was very depressing to see them die by the tens of thousands each day with nothing I could do to stop it after the foragers had brought the poison into the hive. I wound up destroying all of the honey and comb because I wouldn’t take the chance of feeding it to people and couldn’t reuse it for bees without poisoning them, too. Then took a year off, soaked and sanitized the woodenware, and started again from scratch this year. It was painful, but different from your pain. As a lot, homeowners tend to be ignorant about the broader affects of of their actions. Farmers are expected to know exactly what they are applying and to minimize adverse effects.
I wish you the best outcome you can possibly get from this event.
Cityman…your boss is a dirtbag…I know exactly the type and I as much as suspected it from the outset. In fact, I as much as said so.
Your comparing of the loss of a loved one through tragedy really is something to consider. Your angst is of part anger, part disappointment. Their loss is a very sad and woefully painful one that nobody ever really recovers from. Your loss can be replaced, their loss cannot. You definitely have the right idea imo, putting things in perspective. You are a sensible and judicious person. It is so extremely evident in your writing.
Olpea gives (imo) rock solid advice concerning the EPA. It is so sensible that I’m surprised it would not be protocol for your state agency to automatically report this to them as a matter of procedure.
I personally would be more apt to follow Drew’s line of thinking…if he wanted to take me out I’d be sure to take him with me. I realize of course that you wouldn’t want to go to that extreme and neither would I. I probably would anyway though.
Muddy makes excellent points as well. In fact, in my thousands upon thousands of read posts both here and at GW it is this thread that I’ve found the most thoughtful and best writing in my gardening reading career.
The visit to talk with the guy and the letters already has him pissed. He won’t outwardly show it of course, but he’s mad. He thinks it’s really your fault for planting fruit trees and grapes near his field. In his way of thinking…you asked for it. So did the other guy who had the nerve to plant grapes near his field.
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Why I said it. I’m angered about it too. I have been in similar situations. Like having to have my neighbor’s son arrested. So much for our 20 year friendship, you don’t mess with me and expect to get away with it. Long story, they have since moved out.
You spray something all over my property that used to be part of the cocktail mix called Agent Orange, and I’ll own your farm before I’m done with you. To me this is possibly compromising the health of my wife and children. I would make it my life’s mission. All I have said I totally mean by legal means, nothing stupid, the system has plenty of tools to bring down such people.
I’ll give you an example of using the system. My daughter was in a bad relationship with this guy, and afraid to leave him. She finally came to me for help. I knew he had mental issues so arranged to have him temporarily committed. My wife is an ER nurse and knows exactly how to petetion someone for commitment. I moved my daughter out and removed her from the bad situation while he was being evaluated. I knew he would be held for 24 hours. I watched as the police removed him, from the premises. And told him you mess with my daughter, you mess with me! My daughter is doing much better and now in management at General Motors. One of the best jobs one could get. She has unlimited potential in the position she is in now. This guy now is in some halfway house in the city. Sometimes your kids make stupid decisions.
You think raising your kids when young is the hardest part, no, wait till them become adults and the real work begins. And keep that pocketbook open! When this happened my daughter was 18, she is now 30, and finally independent.
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Cityman, you have another person who may be willing to provide their testimony in court if needed. I would find out who that person was with the grapevines. Because this person did not take action after his disaster, it allowed your mayor to continue in his practices, and now damage your trees. And, expose YOU to some pretty nasty stuff. If someone doesn’t take action, this person will simply continue to to be wreckless in his spraying practices without regard to other peoples’ properties. I would give the EPA and this other injured party a call. I would prepare for the worst, and hope for the best, but you’ve lost a significant investment in your trees that is still not ending. Olpea has given you some very sound and excellent advice. Please keep us posted, you are in such a delicate situation, we all certainly appreciate it.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
Edmund Burke
cityman, I think we both got into this whole growing fruit thing at about the same time, and have more or less followed a similar path. I also walk my yard on a daily basis, checking on every thing. It really is a passion. And, it’s not so much the loss of money, but the investment of time and care, and the hope and expectations that you’ve invested - just waiting for the fruits or your labor. And, to suddenly lose all that due to the carelessness of others is truely heartbreaking.
If you do decide to move forward with growing fruit, then my offer is to provide cuttings of anything that I have. As you may recall, I also live near McMinnville. My additional offer is that when ordering season comes around, let me know if there is anything from the local nurseries you’d like for me to pick up and send to you. I’d only ask for cost of plant materials, and I’d cover the postage. Let me know if there is any thing else I can do.
Rob
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Wow. I’ve said it before, but after the latest responses I just received I have to say again that I’m incredibly moved by the fact that all of you not only understand and emphasize with what has happened to me, but your expressions of that empathy as well as the incredibly good advice, information, and the offers of assistance (Rob, etc) are nothing short of spectacular. From the bottom of my heart I want each and every one of you to know how much it means to me that you you get it and have shown such strong support for someone you only know through our shared hobby. I can honestly say I’ve got 10 times more comfort and understanding here than I have from my closest friends and family. As they see it, I need only get the farmer to buy me some new trees, plant them, and wait a couple years and all will be well. They just don’t get the time, effort, and especially the hopes and dreams that I put into the selection, care, and life of each tree. Clearly you all get it. And I appreciate it more than I can express. As I said above, I have been able to keep this in perspective enough to recognize that in the big picture of life this pales in comparison to the losses that many people suffer. Still, for me in my life it’s still one of the worst things that’s happened to me in years and does feel like a big deal with a big impact on my life and its consumed my waking thoughts constantly and caused some deep unhappiness. But I recognize it for what it is- the lost of a lot of time and work and money but not a life-altering tragedy by any means.
One of the things that the latest round of responses has done is left me feeling I really need to pursue some action here and do whatever is necessary to force the man who did it to take responsibility. I am going to do that. If it costs us our friendship or working relationship, so be it. And just so you know, it takes 3 City Council members to fire a City Manager and even he retaliates I don’t think he could get another vote, let alone 2 more. If he did…they have courts to address those kinds of things as well!
So here is my plan, plain and simple. I’m going to put together a very clear list of all the trees that were outright killed and the most severely damaged ones that are still alive but clearly ruined. Same with all berry plants. I’m going to be really nice and humble and let him know that I think its only fair that he replace them with comparable size trees and plants. I am going to be more reasonable than I could and more reasonable than a lot of people might be…I’m not going to ask to be paid for all the time I’ve spent on the trees or all the spray and fertilize and other costs. I’m also not going to ask him to pay for all the trees that are damaged-perhaps some forever- or the loss of this year’s growth and this years fruit. I’m not going to charge for the labor it will cost me to replant all the trees and plants, or many other costs that I could ask for if it were in court. It will end up being about 25 trees and 25 plants- those are the ones that are already dead or almost certainly will be. All the other stuff I’m just going to accept as a loss…UNLESS…
If he agrees to buy similar age trees and plants, I’m going to accept it and forgive his mistake as just that…an accident for which he paid a lot for. HOWEVER, after reading all your comments I’ve decided that if I make that very generous, good faith offer and he starts to back-peddle or refuse to pay or deny the extend of damage or whatever…I’m going after him. Big Time. I’ll make your proud, Appleseed70!!! 
After a career as a bureaucrat and working with countless government agencies, I’ve learned how to work the system quite well if I do say so myself. Really. I’ll call the appropriate federal (EPA, etc) and state agencies. I’ll contact my elected officials. I’ll write letters. I’ll contact the media and actually focus on the fact that an elected official has repeatedly violated state and federal laws and then refused to accept responsibility- even in the face of government documented evidence that he is to blame. And I very, very well may go ahead and just turn it over to an attorney and seek damages to cover every minute I ever spent on my trees, every dime I ever spent on products to support and improve those trees, all the money I could have sold the fruit for over the next 3 years. I may very well even explore the question of whether my own health has been damaged, as well as that of my animals and my property in general. Then I may go after punitive damages along with actual. In other words, after reading all your comments I sort of realized that he is either going to meet my minimal demands, or my new hobby is going to be going after him and collecting every penny I can and forcing every government official to enforce the law to the fullest extent possible.
I hope some of you don’t think that would be too harsh or irrational. Please remember I’m only going that route if he continues to try to weasel out of any responsibility. I didn’t do anything wrong, and he should at an absolute minimum go ahead and replace dead and dying trees and plants with comparable ones. If he does, I’ll still have lost a lot but I’ll accept it. If he doesn’t…its going to be hell to pay. I hope you guys support that logic? Thanks.
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Your a good person willing to go the extra mile to get the minimum out of your past expenses. I’m wondering if your backing yourself into a corner with your generosity. Not sure you can ask for less then later go after everything. You might want to seek advice from an attorney before proceeding with any offer of settlement. My heart is with you. Bill
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I absolutely concur with Bill (Auburn on this). I would consult an attorney prior to speaking with this guy. Make sure you get any offer from this man in writing, and not just a verbal agreement (that’s still a “contract”, but certainly much harder to prove in court). I would also have a witness with you during any conversations you have with this man, to corroborate your side of the story. And, no matter what you settle upon, do let the EPA know about this guy. He is very unlikely to change his practices and continue to possibly harm other people’s property with his careless spraying practices.