Wow, bet they used something else besides or in addition to 2-4D as mentioned by Olpea.
Just for your own health you have to do something.
Wow…I thought it was 1 tree. 17 trees plus the pines? Sorry bubby, but if it was me I’d have to burn his house down with him in it. Good on you to be so understanding, but my experience with people is that if you don’t bang 'em hard, they’ll likely be no less careless next go 'round.
Sadly, most people just don’t care unless there is some cost to them whether that be physical or monetary harm or both.
I already had the same issue here at my place last year. Greener Lawn Care rolled in and a guy with a backpack sprayer was spraying weeds on a blustery day using a wide fan. I walked down and asked if he was spraying 2-4 D, he said “no”. He said it was safer than 2-4D. I said “well you are making me nervous getting near my fruit trees with that stuff on a windy day”. He said “it shouldn’t be a problem”. I said “for your sake, you better hope it’s not, I know who you work for and I know what you look like”.
He decided to not spray the adjoining weeds. If I hadn’t spoke up he was going to spray them and likely there would have been some damage since that’s the way the wind was blowing…and hard too. I’m talking about weeds with 2 feet of my trees.
I don’t know what he told the people he was spraying for and I don’t care. I wasn’t making silly idle threats and he knew it.
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Wow, Kevin. Very, very sorry to hear this. I think you’ve been given some very excellent advice. I would definitely speak to the owner of the property (your city mayor). He may not even realize what happened, and may be really upset for you. I would give him the benefit of the doubt and the ability to make amends. I would ask to have a meeting with the fellow that applied the herbicide, and have them meet on your property, so they both can see the extend of the drift damage that was done. You actually have some legal rights here, as they have damaged your personal property. Olpea explained that the person doing the application can use better techniques to reduce or even eliminate drift, and they need to do that. First being that they do not spray on a windy or breezy day or time of day (dead still in the very early morning hours, for example).
We had something similar happen to use in Indiana where we had crop dusters all the time going over some of the crops very close to our house. One day, one of the dusters was dusting on a very breezy day, and we could watch the damned stuff come floating over to our property. I had grass fields, horses, my pool, my huge veggie garden, etc. I located the owner and called them, and told them to please make sure not to schedule their crop dusting when it was so windy, as we were always going to be downwind of their fields. They apologized and complied. Never had an issue, again. They were very nice about it, in fact. But, I can tell you that if I hadn’t gotten that kind of response, I would have been out with my video camera, and would have then been calling the EPA and my local news channel. This is no joke. And, they need to be held responsible. Who knows what other properties they’ve done this to. You may not be the only one. I would check that out, as well. Please keep us all posted, I feel so badly for you. I hope everything can recover for you.
City, sounds like you have a lot of trees damaged and I don’t know how they will turn out but this is what I would do. Talk to the farmer explain everything and ask him to meet you at your house to look at the trees. Have an open and honest talk about what chemicals he used so you can better research how they effect your trees. I would also contact his local chemical salesman. The man that we use is very nice and also very knowledgeable, if he doesn’t know the answer he will call and get it. This is what these salesman do, they sell but also address any problems. We call our guy in a good bit to check our crops and get recommendations. He can probably give you an honest assessment of your situation and whether or not your trees will recover. If the trees don’t recover the person spraying should get you some new trees.
Good outcome there, but the question remains…why were they doing it in the first place? He knew to be obviously polite and apologetic because he knew very well that you would likely cause him trouble otherwise. He knew you had other options. I bet aerial applicators do this often because the weather is something difficult to schedule for. It would be cost prohibitive for the crew to hang around the airport waiting on calm winds.
I’ve said it before but I’m compelled to say it again: Thank-you, every single one of you who has posted on this thread. Not only for the incredibly good detective work, outstanding advice, and general information, but for your genuine compassion which shines through every single post. Needless to say, this is a very, very big deal to me. But non fruit growers don’t get it. Even my own family and friends just seem to think of it in terms of the cost of trees, which you all know is really the very least of my heartache. It’s the loss of 3-4 years of hard work and TLC that I’ve put into these trees to prepare them for a future of fruit producing and enjoyment. Its the time I spent selecting them, ordering, planting, pruning, spraying, fertilizing, mulching, and otherwise caring for them. Only you all can relate and truly understand this and I have been touched by how genuinely concerned all of you have been.
Make no mistake- I’m going to approach the offending farmer (the Mayor, who is head of City Council and therefore 1/5th of those who decide to hire or fire me). So I will have to be delicate. But he is a good guy and I suspect he will be very good about it. He’ll probably offer to pay but I don’t plan to accept that. Also, I’m a little reluctant to show him the damage because I’m afraid that even if he is well meaning, he won’t recognize the real extent of the damange. For example, no trees are 100% dead (yet) and only about 5 have damage severe enough to be obvious. Even those shown in the photos with the strange, extra long, curly stems are alive and may survive. The cherries that bloomed without petals and didn’t fruit up now look fairly normal. The appricots have lost all their leaves but I think they are still alive so they look like maybe they are just not out of dormancy yet. Blackberries are yellow-green and sort of frozen in time but if you aren’t familiar with them you might think the look normal. I could go on…but the point is that a non fruit tree knowledgable person is likely to think there is only slight damage and by next year they will be fine.
Speaking of which…I can’t help but think that my pears are permanently damaged because of the way they are now growing. Instead of the new growth growing into straight, normal, new wood, all the branch tips are growing in wild, curvy circles and sort of winding their way up. I can’t even imagine how that will affect the future appearance and structure of the trees. I’m tempted to at least cut all that new spirally growth off…but who knows.
Anyway, I’m sorry for all my long posts but obviously I’m really upset by what has happened and its so nice to have an understanding and compassionate audience that I’m afraid I tend to vent too much! Thanks again for all your comments. Knowing some of you have been through it, that it can be prevented, and so on makes this easier.
Appleseed70, remind me to not get on your bad side! haha (“I’d become his worst nightmare”, “I’d burn his house down with him in it”). hahaha. I’m just kidding you…its actually nice to see that kind of passion and hear that it upsets you as much as me. This case has saddened me more than angered me because it wasn’t intentional (tho careless for sure). Now when a (different) neighbor’s dog kills my chickens, I tell them about it, and it comes back 2 days later and kills more (it’s happened!) THEN I get the kind of anger you are expressing!
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I still think the people involved need to and may want to see the damage.To me,there should be no question as to what has been done,after looking at the plants.I have never seen what those chemicals do and when first looking at your pictures,it was strangely puzzling and I think anybody,even someone who doesn’t grow things,can see something’s not right.
Also,what about the danger to yourself,breathing in that stuff?Suppose there had been children playing around there.I haven’t looked up the toxicity to people.but I’d rather not have it in the air near me. Brady
Cityman,
I wouldn’t put the trees under any more stress than possible, so I wouldn’t even prune them. For the most part, pruning is a stressor on the tree. Just try to give them ideal care with a mild amount of fertilizer and water if needed. Don’t overdo the water or fertilizer.
I’ll admit some of what you describe sounds bad. The apricots sound like they are same as dead if the herbicide defoliated them.
I think you are right that only people as passionate about fruit growing as folks on this forum can really understand what happened to you. I’ve always said the cost of trees is insignificant compared to the care which goes into them. You do good job capturing the feelings of so many fruit enthusiasts when you talk about all the planning, ordering, planting, tending, etc. Destroying a backyard orchard doesn’t just destroy property, it destroys a dream.
However, as bad as it seems right now, I don’t think all is lost with your trees or your dream. Sadly some of your plants/trees probably will die. Others will recover. You are a very sharp guy and I think will figure out a way to handle this delicate situation so that you can eventually raise more fruit than you or your family are able to eat.
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He is a person that grows things for a living he will understand the damage when he sees it, or at least he should.
Reading back through things you said the field always had weeds in to so this may be the first time he has ever used 2,4-D, if thats what he used. He needs to know that 2,4-D drifts very badly, its one of the reasons we don’t use it anymore. Certain plants don’t need to touch 2,4-D they just have to “smell” it to take damage.
Lots of people spray 2,4-D and atrazine on their yard grass in the spring and don’t hurt the flowers and shrubs but you have to be very careful. Also if he were to spray before your trees break dormancy would also help.
City.
One thing I saw in all the suggestions that will be a help to protect your property and family from future poisonings, plant a tall hedge around the property. I know this is an expense you shouldn’t absorb but weather factors may not favor this same poisoning circumstances again for years and give you enough time for the hedge to grow. Common lilac would be my 1st choice because it is a herbicide sponge and not die but show exaggerated symptoms as a tell. You will have to have that stern talk with the farmers/sprayers about the damage. Loss of a commercial spray license is financially severe blow. I know in Ia. you break label law you don’t get the license back. Any one with either ag or a commercial license is very careful with them. Whoever caused that damage is totally liable for it. Without a doubt Richard is right, Federal law is most strict with extremely severe penalties. We face the same issues with honeybees. Having your boss being the culprit and a political power gives new meaning to walking in a mine field. I guess this is where you use the velvet covered iron fist. Just don’t quit. All His best.
Chikn
Cityman, I think your Mayor probably knows enough to know he is not an expert in everything. If you show him the damage and also explain the damage that isn’t as visible to the untrained eye, as you have on this thread, he is likely to give you the benefit of the doubt.
Well, here is a bit of an update:
In terms of damage, its looking worse than ever. My grapes, which had barely even started growing when this happened and which I therefore thought would be fine…are not. Their leaves are all balled up and even as they’ve come out more, they have just remained all rolled up and strange looking, and a lot of them have just turned brown and died. 3 sweet cherries have lost every leaf on the trees, as have 3 apricots. 7 Pear trees are alive but incredibly distorted and show nothing but a twisted mass of stems and drooping leaves. Again, extremely strange looking. 2 plum trees dropped all leaves and 2 look completely wilted. 3 Fig trees came out, grew about 1/4 inch beyond buds, and then completely died. Blackberries haven’t grown but haven’t died…they turned yellow and then just froze in time and haven’t grown at all in almost 2 weeks. Some raspberries died, some did not.
In all, I have about 14 trees that have lost all leaves or exhibit extreme signs of retardation. About 11 more trees show similar symptoms, but not as severe and they may well survive-though the new growth is all in spiral form so I have to wonder what shape the future limbs will be.
In light of all this damage, I just couldn’t contain myself. I reached out to the “pesticide and herbicide complaint” division of the TN Dept. of Agriculture. They took it quite seriously and are sending someone up here tomorrow to take a look, take samples of my plants and the offending field. They also are going to be “interviewing” the offending farmer.
Since I knew he was going to know, I just went to him (who as I’ve said is sort of my boss in my regular job) and informed him of all the damage I had suffered and let him know that I’d contacted the Dept. of Ag. I told him- and this is indeed partly true- that I had reached out to them for advice on what I should do from here- whether I should cut my trees and my losses, wait it out, etc. and to see if it really was herbicide damage or something else, since I didn’t know for sure.
I don’t know how to summarize his reaction. Generally, I’d say good but not great. Basically, he said “well, I’ll talk to the guy who did the spraying. It definitely could have been us. If it was, I’ll pay for the trees. But it shouldn’t kill them, probably just keep them from doing much this year”. Oh…he wasn’t that bad. He repeated that he was sorry if it was them and said he’d pay for whatever he killed. But he was a little to quick to point out that there were 2 other fields near by, even though I’d told him it happened right after he sprayed and that his field showed broadleaf damage and death at the same stage as mine. He didn’t really anger me or anything…I guess I was just a little disappointed that he clearly had no grasp at all of what a huge deal this was too me. He just saw it as having to replace dead trees and hope the others recover.
Anyway, the State guy is coming tomorrow and I am really looking forward to what she says. She already called and said she’d be wanting to talk to the offender and look at their records. I kinda wish I hadn’t told the farmer that because I am 100% certain that he is now going to go make sure all his paperwork is in order, whereas he pretty much admitted that it wasn’t when I asked when he sprayed. He said “they are supposed to write that down but they might not have”. I bet its written down by tomorrow. Oh well. I’m honestly not “out to get him” at all. If nothing else comes from having the state involved, I bet they’ll speak sternly enough to him that he will be more careful in the future. That’s what I want most of all.
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Grapes are extremely sensitive to 2,4-D type herbicides. About like tomato. It does sound bad but it looks like you’ll get some type off justice. Just hope it doesn’t hurt you at work.
City
The applicator is the one who needs his knuckles rapped. They should absolutely know better, especially around farmsteads. In Ia., there would also be a very steep fine and lose of license as well as compensating you for the damage. Talk with the pesticide people. This one time when you want a person to say, I’m here from the gov’ment and we’re going to help you. Most of the woody plants will hang on this year but will not leaf in the spring. You will also see scion death but not rootstock death. Also have them replace older trees w/ older trees. They have insurance for this. Please keep us informed, your pain could help others who suffer this also
Chikn
Things will be fine at work…and if it were to come down to it the Mayor is only one of 5 votes and it takes 3 to fire a City Manager! I’m good with other 4…and I really don’t think I’ve ticked him off. He wasn’t quite as empathetic as I’d have hoped, but he did generally understand that it was his fault.
I’m glad you mentioned insurance, chikn. I had wondered if he might be insured. I also was wondering if my homeowners might even cover it? Very doubtful, and if they did I’m sure they’d go back to the farmer who caused it if they could. But I might ask them about it. I’ve heard of big trees being covered in some cases, but I don’t know about fruit trees.
I also wondered about getting big replacement trees! I’m only about 2.5 hours from McMinville, TN which many of you may know is the nursery capital of the southeast. If insurance money were to come into play, I wonder if anyone might actually have some big fruit trees…like some 3-5 year old trees. Even if they did I’d say they would just have some basic varieties, but its something I’ve been thinking about.
Most likely I’ll just let these trees limp along until next year and see what happens, and I’ll just order new bare root for the dead ones. sooooo sad. I hope no one else ever has to go thru this, but if they do I hope this thread helps them.
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One of the problems you’re going to have is the stuff takes a season to dissipate,not like roundup, you may see further damage to the hit trees. I had some hit my raspberries from the lawn people. All year the raspberries grew distorted leaves. They did survive though. Don’t replace anything till next year. The area is contaminated. Talk the Ag person about it.
I think you are feeling bad about the fact that they (the farmers and the sprayers) are going to feel bad. DON’T. BTW…how did they apply this spray tractor / aerial?
What do you think the chances are that any of them had a license to spray? Is a license required in TN? I wouldn’t be surprised at all if it’s not just a couple yahoos with a tractor and some spraying equipment and a source for commercial herbicide who have no license. I hope that doesn’t turn out to be the case because then they won’t have any insurance and are likely broke as a joke.
You are right too, you really shouldn’t have told him. I understand you were trying to be a gentleman about it and everything, but that will get you nowhere these days.
Offering to pay for the trees was only a gesture, the mentioning of the other fields sprayed was indicator of the direction this will take. He will place the burden of proof on you and the state inspectors, and that is only assuming the inspectors arrive at a determination.
Oh…and don’t mention a word of your spraying round up. It had nothing to do with your damage, but if you mention it to any of them, you’re finished.
I really hope everything works out for you friend.
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The way I think people react when they do damage to someone they don’t have a close & caring personal relationship with, is that they sometimes feel guilty if they do minor damage. But when they perceive that they’ve created a large amount of damage, they go into CYA mode and wind up feeling defensive and sorry for themselves that they have the hassle of dealing with the consequences.
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yup…nailed it!
@thecityman there’s no perfect thing to do in a bad situation such as this, but it sounds to me like you are handling it very diplomatically and very reasonably. I’m staying tuned to hear what the state says and how the mayor responds. This is the most gripping drama on the fruit forums currently! Hang in there.
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