My very strange pears

As always, thanks for everyone’s kind remarks, offers, and comments. After a year with absolutely no fruit at all, I am sure looking forward to next year!

Funny that you should ask for an update. Just last week I called the state again and ask them for a copy of my complete file along with the final disposition of my case (i.e. what they fined the farmer (aka the Mayor) who did this to me). Just yesterday I did receive that file, and I must say that in many ways I was quite impressed. It had notes from all the interviews they did with surrounding property owners, many lab results from tests done on “organic materials” from all the properties surrounding me, notes from their interviews with the offender and several of his staff, copies of weather reports for the day and week of spraying, their interviews with me, and much more. The entire file was well over an inch thick and every page in it was something they collected during the investigation. In short, I feel like they did a much more thorough investigation than I expected. ANd just as they promised me when the investigation began, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever that if I did want to sue, that file is nothing but a mountain of evidence that proves without any doubt whatsoever who’s overspray killed all my trees and grapes and berries, when they did it, what they used, and so on. The state promised me that if I did decide to sue, their investigation would provide undeniable proof that would almost certainly assure me a victory. Seeing this file, I agree. If I sued, I would win. All that being said, even though its wrong in every way to let him get away with this, that is most likely what I’m going to do. AS I’ve said before, because of our working relationship it is probably in my best interest to just let it go. I understand that its illegal for him to fire me because of that, and the reality is that he can’t fire me anyway, it takes 3 votes of the 5 City Council members to fire a City Manager. But it would obviously result in a very adversarial working relationship and would drastically change my entire working environment and cause quite a bit of a scandal locally. The newspapers would love running stories about the city manager suing the mayor, and even though I think most people would support me, its just not the kind of publicity that is good for anyone or the town and it would be a big distraction. I have enormous latitude and decision making authority right now because my council likes and trusts me. I wouldn’t trade all that for a few thousand dollars even if knew 100% that I’d win.

All that being said, I can’t give you the final update on this matter because it STILL isn’t over. The one thing you’d (and me) most like to know is what the State did to him- ie what was his penalty. On the very top of my file that they sent me was a handwritten note that said “disciplinary hearing has not been held as of 11-1-15, but should occur by January 1, 2016”. So we don’t know. What I do know is that the state has promised me that he will have to pay a minimum of $1,000 fine and maximum of $10,000. They also said he and/or the person who did the actual spraying will have to take a class on how to property spray herbicide/pesticides. IF they fine him $1,000 and make them take that class, then the state will have done more than expected. I’ve seen state agencies do much less in cases that I thought were more serious than this.

I think now that I have this huge file filled with proof, I’ll probably make a full copy of it, give it to the Mayor, and be pretty civil about it and just say “hey, here is the absolute, undeniable proof that you killed all my trees and plants and I’d appreciate it if you’d go ahead and turn it in to your insurance so they can reimburse me at least for the cost of the trees and plants if not for all my years of time and all the sprays and fertilized I applied for 3-5 years”. And then I’ think I’ll give him a copy of a list of the trees and plants he killed along with a spread sheet showing price of each killed tree/plant AND a price list from an on-line supplier so he’ll know my prices are fair and accurate.

Then, finally, I’ll just say something along the lines of “I really wish you’d help me out on this since it is 100% your fault, but if you don’t want to do the right thing I’m not going to sue because that’s just not who I am”. I can’t imagine any 1/2 way decent human being seeing all that proof that they ruined someone’s property and cost them a lot of money and not stepping up and doing the right thing…especially when all the have to do is give my number to their insurance company and let them settle with me. But I could be wrong. After all, he’s known since April that he did this and he hasn’t mentioned it since. So who knows. If his plan was just to wait me out and hope I’d just move on, then as much as it will pain you and me to admit it, its working. I’ll post an update if and when there are any new developments. thanks.

Thanks, Kevin.

Well just to ease your mind you made the right decision. I know of no lawyer who would take a lawsuit under 10 grand. it just isn’t worth their time.

I expect premiums to triple! I doubt he will.

Both those are very good points, Drew. A lawyer would also take at least 33% of what I won and probably more in such a small case. If I did pursue it legally I’d do it in small claims and do it pro se, but as the saying goes, I’d have a fool for a client if I did that! ha

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Hey it was the principal, you called the state, he got his hand slapped, if he does it again the state will go after him again, and maybe give the big fine out. I agree with you though not to pursue, but yes, ask him about an insurance claim. I think that is a good idea, although as stated he may not do it. I made claims on my house with little rise in premium, so maybe I’m way off there?
My wife is going to sue her former employer for racial discrimination. She decided to go ahead with it. The lawyer is determining now if she has a case, if so we are going forward. She was recently fired. She already landed another good job, but it’s the principal, and a little revenge, and we may go even further than just a law suit. The Hospital is involved in Medicare Abuse, and we plan to report them. She has hard evidence too, names dates, incidents, Doctors involved, etc. it’s a big deal. We are taking our time. Also the feds pay 10% to whistle blowers of any recovered funds. I see retirement in my future! Well I can dream anyway! The last case in this area recovered 34 million. This may not be as big, but it is in the millions. It is all of our money, and we are not going to let them get away with it.I have paid a lot of taxes, still do! It is wasted enough on legit reasons. So at least we can stop this abuse in it’s tracks.

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I wonder in total what all the inspections, interviews, testing, compilation of data etc cost the good taxpayers of TN?
I bet whatever the cost, it’s a whole lot more than the minimum $1000 fine he may or may not get. I bet at the very most he pays the minimum fine. Not a very good return for the taxpayer, and certainly something to reduce the aggressiveness of the state department handling the matter. This is all saying nothing of your taking it on the chin.

So, in the end, both you AND the taxpayers get to take a shot for some individual’s recklessness and indifference. I’m not sure I see the good in that. So he gets to be careless with both property and human health and gets off for pennies on the dollar. Doesn’t sound very positive to me, in fact, this sounds like more of a loss to bystanders while the perpetrator rolls on happily.

Telling him you won’t sue anyway after putting taxpayer dollars to work sounds irresponsible to me. I understand your wanting to be a good neighbor, coworker etc. I think your a good guy, in fact, I’m nearly certain of it. Kevin, this guy hasn’t said anything of it because he’s counting on your good nature and passiveness.
He stole your lunch money and knows you’ll do nothing about it.
You get robbed and he gets detention…big deal. Only in this case other folks get to pay for part of it.

I’d have lowered the boom on him in a way he’d most definitely never forgotten it.

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What is? Why the government needs to do the minimum of services only.

Jeff- You and I are in almost complete agreement. Of course no one is winning in this situation and of course the offender is getting off easy and of course its not fair for me or the taxpayers or anyone else. And I think we all wish that government operated on more of a cost/benefit equality level where they always recouped what they spent, but as Drew said above, that’s very rare. And let me be clear- I do think I’m generally a pretty nice guy, but that has absolutely nothing to do with why I’m not going after this guy with both barrels loaded. I assure you that if this was any other neighbor that did this to me and my trees, I’d would have taken an entirely different approach and I have a best friend who is a lawyer that I’m sure would handle the case as a favor and I would unleash him and I’d be pushing the state a lot harder and appearing personally at the penalty hearing to make sure the administrative hearing officer understands the damage that was done and that no compensation has been made or even offered. I’d literally be knocking on his front door at least once a week asking if he had a check for me. Trust me, my handling of this situation is entirely different than it would be with anyone else.
But in your post you completely disregarded the working/professional relationship I have with this guy and the political realities of this situation. You have to understand that what you are suggesting is that I sue my boss and/or create a whole lot of problems for him, and then expect that I will continue to have the same working environment and relationship with him and my other bosses (City Council). Its just not practical, and the fact of the matter is that one of my paychecks from my job is more than everything I lost with the spray damage, so to me it just doesn’t make sense to risk my job over a couple thousand dollars worth of trees. I’m sorry the taxpayers may have to pay for the difference in what the state fines him and what the investigation costs, but I’m loosing more than that and I don’t think I should have to risk my career AND loose my trees both just to protect the taxpayers. Believe me, there are much bigger wastes of taxpayers money than what this investigation costs, and its not my fault that the state doesn’t fine him the full cost of that investigation when they clearly have the legal right to do so (the law allows them up to $10k in fines). On top of all of this, there are some political realities that I have to contend with. We all hate “politics” in that context and its bad and wrong and shouldn’t be that way and so on, but I have to operate in reality, and the reality is that when a City Manager sues or goes on attack of the Mayor who hired him and generally supports him (in my job) it is a problem. If I left my current job, either voluntarily or because I pushed this too far and council gets tired of reading all the news about a fight between me and the mayor, and I go for another job, the next city council would also be a little shy about hiring a city manager who sued the mayor at his last job- whatever the reason or justification. City officials don’t like employees who sue employers, and there is the thought that if I’d do it over dead trees I might do it over other things. ITs easier to just to find city managers that didn’t leave their last job because they were embroiled in a huge controversy and/or lawsuit. Its just the political reality. It might be wrong that they take that position, and the City Manager may well have been on the right side and be justified (as I would be here I think) but that doesn’t mean other city officials are going to applaud me for suing my employer.
Now, is the Mayor taking advantage of this situation and the knowledge that I’m not likely to come after him? Of course he is. Is that despicable? Absolutely. Would it be morally superior if I’d go ahead and sue him anyway and risk my career so taxpayers aren’t out the cost of the investigation and so the mayor is punished beyond what the state fines him? I suppose it would be. But for me personally, the benefits of punishing him and protecting the taxpayers just isn’t worth the risk of my job. Understand that towns only have 1 city manager, and that is what I am so I’d have to move to another town, hope they’d overlook what happened here, and so on. I’m sorry, but my decision to not sue and take the related risk makes a lot more sense to me personally. If you’d just say job-be-damned and go after your boss at all costs no matter what, then I respect your strong moral position and apologize that I just don’t have that degree of conviction in this case.

Kevin, not everybody agrees with each other, although i don’t think i ever read such a complete explanation of anyone’s actions. I 100% agree a law suit would be far more trouble than benefit. It is an excellent decision. In my wife’s case we worried about this too, so she secured another job before initiating a law suit, and actually we still have not. I still don’t know if we have a case or not? She met with the lawyer yesterday to give him more info, they so far think it is a go. And it’s going to be extremely fun to watch her former employer squirm. What helped is the fact her former employer brags that they are the 100th largest employer in the USA, this lite up the lawyers eyes :stuck_out_tongue: Her lawyer btw is associated with Fieger law, not sure if you heard of him, he is famous for defending Dr. Death. His brother also was in The Knack. (hey I’m a music historian).

I hope Jeff doesn’t think I was being overly defensive because he’s one of the many good guys around here and I do understand where he is coming from. As most people have noticed by now I tend to be a little (ok a lot!) to detailed and lengthy in my posts. In this case, though, I’m sure others may feel I should be going after the offending sprayer a lot harder, so I did want to try and explain why I haven’t done that. I also didn’t mention the fact that I love my job and have spent 15 years getting my city just how I want it so I’m very reluctant to walk away now and let someone else come in and benefit from my years of hard work and budget cuts and economic recruitment. The next few years should be extremely good years for our city thanks to the sacrifices and hard work of the past, so it would be easy for a new manager to walk in and look like a hero as the city has lots of success…dang if I’m gona let someone else get that credit! ha.
Your wife’s case sounds interesting, and I absolutely am familiar with Jeff Fieger. Besides Kevorkian I know he’s defended a couple people who were involved in murder cases related to live tv shows (Jerry Springer type stuff! ha) and I think he even ran for Governor a few years ago. Anyway, I know he is a big-time lawyer so if your attorney is associated with his firm I’d say your in good hands. ANd if the company has deep pockets as your suggest, I’m your attorney will work hard (as opposed to me trying to get one to work hard on a few thousand dollars worth of trees!).

Well the way they did it was so poor and racist. Interesting because my wife is white. In this particular facility (located in Detroit) one of over 700 owned by the parent corporation, the CEO is firing all the white people. The reason was totally fabricated and my wife can prove it. The real reason is the color of her skin, and it’s blatantly obvious. She is on a third appeal, she has to finish that process first. it’s possible they give her, her job back. They know she will pursue this further although all correspondence is extremely professional. I wish I had 1/10 of her writing skills. This job paid 6 figures, so if they lose the suit, it is quite a bit of money. Damage to her professional reputation, emotional distress, punitive damages and payment until she retires would be owed.
She landed another job where she will be working with cancer patents. The title is Nurse Navigator. She will help the patents navigate through the process of treatment. Explaining what will happen, and when problems arise where to go, and who to see. It’s a fairly easy job, and doesn’t pay as well, although she will enjoy it a lot more. That’s fine with me. If she’s happy, I’m happy! She starts Monday.

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Kevin, I don’t think you were overly defensive at all, in fact, upon rereading my post it sounds terribly accusatory. I didn’t intend that, but although I do understand the predicament, I’m not sure I understand the need to disarm yourself voluntarily. So you’re not going to sue, I understand that, but only because of the situation you outlined so clearly, but why tell him that upfront? I think you’d kinda like to see if he steps up without that threat. By threat, I don’t mean a threat that you state to him, but rather, one that he knows full well exists due to the evidentiary value of the state compiled report. I’m assuming he has, or will also receive a copy.
I’m also unclear on how you weren’t cautious in contacting the authorities when the incident first occurred. Wasn’t you equally fearful that he would be angry and possibly retaliate in some way?
The way he avoided you and made attempts to cast blame in other directions from the outset pretty much showed his hand.
I wouldn’t sue either, I’d have given him the opportunity (as you did) to do the right thing. If that failed (and it did, and I knew it would) I’d have resorted to other measures. In these sort of situations the law is rarely capable of achieving justice. Most will disagree perhaps, but sometimes other action is called for and justly so imo. When employing such measures it’s best when no state agency or any outside person has been ever been made aware of anything.
You did (as Drew said) state the situation very clearly, and from a legal and self preservation standpoint you are doing the right thing I suppose. I still wouldn’t tell him upfront that a suit is off the table. I wouldn’t say anything if it were me, other than to ask for some common sense reparation payment. Even a small victory would at least be some consolation.

Good point Jeff, i would not tell him my intentions either, let him squirm!
If you read the original thread (not this one) Jeff, all you inquired about is answered. Heck Keven asked us what we thought before he did anything.
At first I don’t think he was going to approach him, later changing his mind. Someone may have even suggested contacting the authorities, I don’t remember exactly? It’s a good read if you missed it! Thanks Kevin btw for sharing this with us, appreciate this and learned a lot myself.

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I actually think I’ve followed it all, but I’ve probably forgotten some of the details or maybe I missed a different thread. I don’t know why, but I think it angers me more than Kevin…lol
If he’d have sprayed my stuff a lawsuit and a 10k fine would seem like a trip to Disneyworld compared to what I’d have in store for him.

isn’t it also considered chemical trespass when their crap lands on your property? my neighbor had some company spray and the chemicals landed over here. i didn’t know there was a term for it until someone sent me a personal message letting me know what it was called and how to deal with it.

http://www.pestboard.ca.gov/howdoi/complaint.shtml

DISCIPLINARY ACTION

Violations of the applicable laws and regulations may result in a citation or charges against the licensee or registered company or that could lead to suspension or revocation of the license or registration. Citations may contain civil penalties (a fine) of up to $5,000 and/or orders of correction requiring the licensee or registered company to make repairs to your property.

If the violations are serious, the Board may take action to suspend or revoke a person’s license or a company’s registration. If a disciplinary action is undertaken, the state Attorney General represents the Board to prosecute the case. The Attorney General is not counsel for the complainant, but counsel for the Board.

Note to self, don’t cross Appleseed70! :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Yes, but each state handles it their way, and we have an example of what TN does here. Fines are bigger for one! No prosecution though! This was a first offense too, so the book is not going to be thrown at them, not yet anyway.

First REPORTED offense. According to neighbors, there were previous years of unreported misuse.

You guys sure have good memories for such a long-term, high volume post! But yes, officially it is his first offense but I found out he killed a bunch of grape vines at one of his other farms and he told me himself that he has had several of his own trees accidentally sprayed by his crews. SO clearly he and/or his people are careless sprayers, making it much more frustrating to me. If it was a one time fluke due to one careless employee and an unexpected wind it would still be inexcusable but much more forgivable. Knowing him and his workers have a habit of being reckless and getting away with it makes me glad I called the state.
Keep in mind, while I completely understand some of your opinions that I should be harder on him and make him squirm and make life more difficult, I feel like I went pretty far to report my boss to the state. I debated a lot on whether to even do that, for many of the same reasons I’ve already stated. There is certainly some risk and I’m certain he is not happy with the fact that I turned him in to the state and he is having to go through interviews, hearings, pay fines, take classes, and have it on his agriculture record. No, its not enough of a punishment for his actions and my loss, but at least this time there have been consequences for his actions, and that is at least something.

When future growingfruit.org users see this thread, I hope they get more from it than just the debate on how I dealt with the offending sprayer. I hope there is some information on this thread that will be helpful in terms of the effects of having your trees sprayed with 2, 4-D. I talked about which trees were most susceptible and posted photos of what they looked like after being sprayed. But I didn’t do much followup on that. You should know that the trees that did survive actually were stunted for almost the whole season, but did seem to hold on. If they didn’t die in the first month, they didn’t die the rest of the year. However, what was a little strange to me is that they held on to the wilted, deformed, curly leaves all year. I would have expected that the leaves-especially those hit hard- would have died and fallen off. But they didn’t. Even after some new growth and new leaves grew on the trees, the old ones that were originally affected stayed on the trees. And in general, the trees put on about 75% less growth than they otherwise would have. In other words, trees that were hit and didn’t die pretty much just remained frozen in time with only some minor growth exceptions. It was one of the most painful things to come out of all this. I could have accepted the loss of 16 or so trees (well, not really, but you know what I mean) but it is as if I completely lossed a full year in my orchard. All my trees are 1-4 years old, so at this point a year’s growth is really critical in getting my trees closer to bearing fruit. But I lost that year. So when you look at the planting dates on my trees its likely you would say “wow, these trees are way to small to be that old”. It remains to be seen whether they will survive the winter dormancy and if they will eventually overcome this ordeal. I will be sure and report on their progress here in the interest of “science” since I hope we can all learn something about the effects of 2, 4-D on different types fruit trees, both short and long term.

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I doubt very many people are interested enough in this on-going, long term drama to look at the attached spreadsheet closely, but if anyone is I’d sure enjoy and appreciate some feedback. As a reminder or explanation: the man who farms the property that joins my orchard sprayed 2. 4-D and killed and severely injured a large number of my fruit trees and berry bushes. The state got involved and did extensive investigating and proved without question that it was that farmer using that spray that killed all my trees and bushes. Their investigation and subsequent administrative action/punishment has taken 9 months and is almost complete. I am now able to approach this farmer and try to get compensation for my losses.

THe spreadsheet I am attaching contains a very detailed documentation of the losses I experienced due to the sprayer’s carelessness. However, there is no way around the fact that many of these numbers are estimates. I believe I have been very conservative in my estimates, but I sure would appreciate some of you taking a look at the figures and letting me know if you think they are reasonable. If not feel free to say so- whether you think they are too high or too low. Or if you have a source for a better way to estimate, let me know.

Please notice that underneath the spreadsheet is a more detailed explanation of how I arrived at each estimated costs.
Thanks all! I know it will take some time for you to look at this, but perhaps you will find it interesting!
spraydamage_spreadsht.xlsx (13.9 KB)

The spreadsheet above is in excel format. Here is a copy in PDF format in case you don’t have excel, but pdf may mess up the appearance of the data?spraydamg_PDFform.pdf (32.0 KB)