I’d research incompatibility between kaki and southern DV.
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maybe interstems are in order?
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The problem with american persimmons is they are still in the infancy stage of becoming domesticated.
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We are working on the hybrids though…
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Very true but interspecific hybrids still have a ways to go also. Some are up to 4 generations now.
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Yes! Compared to kaki genetics there is a lot of catching up to do.
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As we try to improve the species, what attributes are we shooting for? I’m assuming we’re focusing on the 90-chromosome subspecies. I’d suggest:
- Cold hardiness. This exists generally but must be preserved or enhanced.
- Early loss of astringency. This exists in some varieties.
- Great flavor. This can be subjective but some version of great flavor exists in some varieties.
- Early ripening. This trait varies, and it matters more to short-season growers, But it exists in some varieties.
- Unblemished fruit, especially around the calyx. This varies widely.
- Large fruit. This is desirable, other things equal, but most consumers would prioritize taste.
- Fruit hangs through ripeness. This trait may be controversial but (IME) kaki and hybrid fruit stay attached – At harvest, the stems must be cut. In contrast, most DV fruit drops. The stem and calyx break free and the fruit drops to the ground, leaving a hole where the stem used to attach. IMO, it’s way better for the fruit to hang. It seems worth the minor inconvenience of cutting the stem to have pristine, fully ripe and fully non-astringent fruit available on the tree.
I’m admittedly relatively inexperienced in this area, so I offer these comments just to start a conversation. I’d be happy to hear other suggestions. Maybe we should discuss the objectives and perhaps prioritize them.
It might also be useful for us to identify varieties that meet these criteria, more or less. FWIW, in my limited experience the variety that best meets these objectives is H63A. The fruit is only average in size, ripening is not super early but it is early enough, the loss of astringency seems reliable. Taste is very good, it hangs on the tree, and of course it is cold hardy.
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Agreed. Claypool or Lehman, I can’t remember which, said that size was not the path forward. And they had many years of experience to inform that position.
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I think non-astringent tiny tasty persimmons would sell like blueberries or strawberries in season at a grocery store.
Easy to plop one in your mouth full of flavor, ready to eat crunchy or soft depending on preference…
Lots of potential here. Plus for when they are ripe in the fall*, you’re already expecting orange as a seasonal color, so there is some marketing synergy there.
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@disc4tw
There is a persimmon species in Africa that fits that description, although not non-astringent. Roger Meyer grew a few at his ranch in Valley Center, CA.
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The next 3 greatest American persimmons?! Probably not, the fruit they came from wasn’t great. I’m going to graft either H118 or H63 to one probably though.
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Nice work @evilpaul those will grow up fast! The University of Kentucky are naming persimmons they like and why https://www.uky.edu/ccd/sites/www.uky.edu.ccd/files/persimmon.pdf
“‘Prok,’ ‘Killen,’ ‘Claypool,’ ‘I-115,’ ‘Dollywood,’
‘100-42,’ ‘100-43,’ ‘100-45,’ ‘Early Golden,’ ‘John
Rick’ and ‘C-100’ are excellent varieties that contain few or no black specks.”
persimmon.pdf (841.5 KB)
The University of North Carolina mentions a few as well Diospyros virginiana (American Persimmon, Common Persimmon, Date Plum, Eastern Persimmon, Jove's Fruit, Persimmon, Possum Apples, Possumwood, Simmon, Winter Plum) | North Carolina Extension Gardener Plant Toolbox
I really like the fruitnut website since he is in the north and does a lot of great research! American Persimmon (Diospyros virginiana) – The Fruit Nut
Everyone has an opinion! Listen to MyWildOrchard opinions here My Wild Orchard | Facebook
They seem to be leaning towards DEC types aka hobo woods
If your not familiar with Don Eugene Compton of hobo woods check this thread
Or this one
https://growingfruit.org/t/whos-growing-improved-american-persimmons-suggestions-welcome/54573/408
There is a huge fan group of @KYnuttrees who is breeding hybrids and American persimmons. Hopefully everyone realizes half the country or more only want cold hardy American persimmons. We like the idea of hybrids though most are not cold hardy down to zones 3 4,5, or 6a. There are many now that are very cold hardy to zone 6b. Many of us prefer the flavor of Americans and hybrids and not as much kaki types. Cliff is doing a great job at his orchard and honestly the best job most likely of preserving the works of claypool, lehman and many others. He is additionally doing lots of crosses himself. I wonder what his 30 favorites would be?
@jrd51 asked a very good question. He said what attributes do we want in our american persimmons?
I wish i could say everyone cares most about flavor like i do. My experience is they want low astrigency, seedless fruit, nice color with no black spots, fast production, heavy production, cold hardy, self pollinating, large fruit, short trees, disease free aka no spray, ripening times determinate or indeterminate based on unique situations. I prefer fruit that drops myself. In a large orchard of mature trees imagine cutting 10 acres of kaki. 10acres of americans is no problem we simply harvest after a dozen fruit fall.
@SMC_zone6 aka north orchard mentioned this about astringency but few seem to have heard his quote or noticed his observation of Jerry Lehmans work on this.
@SMC_zone6 said this
"L-104 Persimmon is a rare american persimmon that carries the potential for non-astringent breeding work. Jerry Lehman sent this one to me. Here’s what he had to say about it:
The one variety that’s involved in all of the 4 that have been identified
as having non-astringent characteristics is Morris Burton. There was a
doctor Sekar at UC Davis who was an expert in identifying kaki varieties
using electrophoresis. He wrote papers on the subject. In 1998 I had Dr.
Sakar do some work for me with the object to identify virginiana/kaki
hybrid’s and possible hybrids. As a basis in 1998 I did send him
actively growing buds of Morris Burton and other D. virginiana in order
that he could establish typical enzyme patterns for virginiana. In his
report back to me he stated that Morris Burton appears to share an
allele with kaki. I found that interesting and more interesting is that
Morris Burton is involved in all of the 4 varieties that were observed
to produce what Martha Davis and I call non-astringent fruit. That is
some of the fruits could be picked off the tree while still firm with no
astringency. Those 4 varieties were L-92, L-93, L-104 and L-104A. Morris
Burton is involved in all 4 of these. L-92 and L-93 are Szukis X F-100.
L-104 and L-104A are F-7 X Killen (using female pollen). Female pollen
is my way of identifying pollen from pistillate trees. Early Golden,
Garretson, Killen and Szukis will all occasionally put on male flowers
and in which case all the pollen grains contain only X chromosomes, none
contain O chromosomes which pollen from normal males contain 50% X and
50% O. All of the progeny using this female pollen are pistillate, none
staminate. Here are the varieties involved:
Morris Burton_Open pollinated virginiana discovered near Mitchell Indiana.
George_An open pollinated seedling of Garretson and is a grandson of
Early Golden.
F-7_Morris Burton X George
F-100_Morris Burton X George
L-92 and L-93_Szukis X F-100
L-104 and L-104A_F-7 X Killen."
What would Claypool or Lehman or any expert fruit breeder ask of us other than to continue their work on american persimmons after their death? https://growingfruit.org/t/jerry-lehman-has-died/21284
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Good additions. Ignoring our disagreements (e.g., dropping fruit), I’d agree strongly with dwarfing growth, heavy productivity, and parthenocarpy. Parthenocarpy is fruiting without pollination, which is what I think you are getting at with both “seedless” and “self-pollinating.”
I don’t think we’d want a truly seedless fruit (i.e., it produces no seeds ever) because then we could never breed it. And a variety that is truly self-pollinating will produce viable seeds on its own, which is not seedless. The right way to control the presence of seeds is to grow parthenocarpic varieties (no pollination required) but keep them away from any trees making male flowers.
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Interestingly Lehman’s goals weren’t exactly the same as mine. My big 3 are taste, size, and reliable loss of astringency, followed by a close 4th of precociousness. Lehman thought the future of persimmons was commercial processing, so skin thickness (not splatting when falling) and clear flesh were very high on his list. It’s really encouraging to see so many of us growing seedlings out. While each of us might not be able to grow a seedling orchard the size of Lehman’s or Claypool’s, when you add up all the seedlings we all are growing its still pretty impressive. I expect some nice selections to come out of our work in the next 20-40 years and beyond.
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The bigger the size, the bigger the splat 
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The same is true of D. kaki. They usually don’t fall off until overripe and then of course a splat is the result.
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I’ve learned recently that possibly the best available named option for clear looking flesh in virginiana is ‘Celebrity’. I’m more inclined to include it in my breeding efforts with that information.
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Knowing that dissolved starches (e.g. Karo corn syrup) are clear, it would be interesting to know the starch content of D. virginiana flesh of the same cultivar at different stages of ripeness, and also of different cultivars at the same stage of ripeness.
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That one was very late for me last year (first year of fruiting) if that is a factor.
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