England's Orchard Tour - 10/9/23

[blueKYstream]

Unfortunately, I doubt I’ll be able to make it but I wanted to pass along a post made by Cliff England on Facebook. Hopefully, someone here can go and give us some notes:

Announcing The First ever Persimmon tasting and Orchard tours
yes you can eat them also.
NO DOGS PLEASE we have livestock and Pets

When October 9th 2023. @ 11:00 this is on a Monday and Indigenous Peoples Day

Where at Englands Orchard Nursery 35 minutes off I-75 at the Berea KY Exit.
Address 4251 HWY 2004 , McKee, KY. 40447 Physical address
GPS Alternative address 2338 HWY 2004 , McKee KY
GPS is a little different in this region of the Mountains

Please contact for direction and scheduling for a Head count for the Drinks as those will be free.
Cover charge $10.00 per individual

Fruits in Season Asian Pears ,CHE, Persimmon, some Pawpaw and Jujubes all sizes and Flavors.

Please Message FOR reservations

Announcing The First ever... - Englands Orchard Nursery

[Richard]

tempting …

[ansayre]

Thanks for posting. I was planning on asking to make a tour this fall.

[blueKYstream]

It turned out I was able to cancel plans and attend the event with my daughter. We were able to sample a number of American persimmons. Many of the hybrids were not fully ripe. We also tried Che and Jujubes. I took home some pears, but haven’t tried them yet. Here are some notes for those that are interested.

I may be different from many in that I can’t taste huge differences in American persimmons. Most of them tasted like mandarin oranges with some possibly having a hint of date flavor. The orange was definitely prominent. I always asked my daughter first what she thought and she agreed with me on most.

100-46: I tasted straight mandarin orange. My daughter said she did too with possibly some lemon. I have this in the yard grafted last year and it’s definitely precocious.

D31 x Unknown: This was my favorite American persimmon of the day. I tasted it second and came back at the end again to confirm. It has, to me and my daughter, a distinct pumpkin taste with maybe some honey and a hint of allspice.

Row 21, Tree 6 (50/50 Saijo and something else I didn’t catch) - Cliff said it’s red when ripe and excellent. Unfortunately, it wasn’t ripe today. UPDATE: based on a map Cliff previously sent me, this must be Row 21, Tree 5. I might have heard him wrong. I think this is Saijo x Rosseyanka.
Row 22, Tree 8 - Has a tendency to overbear and a nice branch broke on it. I don’t think I had a chance to try this one. UPDATE: This might be “Invitro Rosseyanka F 2014”
Super Rosseyanka - Nice size fruit (bigger than Rosseyanka), but not ripe.

Purple Passion (Saijo x Roseyanka) - Tree has purple leaves through the year. Didn’t get to try it as it wasn’t ripe.
Kassandra - The fruits looked amazing. Unfortunately it wasn’t ripe. However, it’s one I was really interested in trying. I found one a bird pecked and a small portion appeared ripe. I knew I was in for a good bit of astringency but I went for it anyways. I was immediately hit with a high sugar taste before immediately getting astringency. It seems like a terrific variety. Not sure on depth of flavor as I was immediately hit with a good bit of astringency but it should be a winner. Cliff is very high on it.

Roman Kosh - Not ripe

Sosnovskaya - Sweet and a bit like honey

C100 - Mostly mandarin orange flavor but I tasted a bit of pumpkin too. My daughter tasted caramel though I didn’t. I thought this was a good variety.
Prok x Hakaido - mellow, faint taste
Buck Kandy - mandarin orange like most other Am. varieties I tasted
Prok x HKD - Mellow but orangey. I thought this cultivar was good and much better than Prok x Hakaido

I’ll update later on Jujubes.

Cliff mentioned that Nikita’s Botanical Garden was likely destroyed in the Russian/Ukraine war which is a big loss if true.

On a separate note, he recommended bark grafting a scion at about every 2 inches and not removing them later. He showed us an example of what happens if its removed. It was a tree that died on that side and will likely fully die soon (he regrafted a sprout). I hadnt thought about that prior but it makes sense.

[Preston]

@blueKYstream when my Kassandra are ripe ill let you know if you want to try it. I have some Prok too if you want any.

[jcguarneri]

@blueKYstream

Nikita’s Botanical Garden was likely destroyed in the Russian/Ukraine wa

Unlikely. It’s in southern Crimea, far from the front lines.

They also updated their website on Saturday regarding the age of a pine tree.

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[blueKYstream]

That would be great! Thanks!

[blueKYstream]

I know Crimea has seen some recent activity, though not nearly to the extent of some of the other fronts. I imagine Cliff has some close contacts there, so I don’t know that I’d completely dismiss it. Is it accurate? I don’t know for certain or to what extent there may/may not be damage. I’m just passing info along that he had said. Hopefully, it’s not accurate.

[disc4tw]

Thank you for sharing your reviews, I’m excited for the opportunity to attend a future tour if Cliff continues to give them. Has D31 x unk been given any other name or has it been shared widely?

[disc4tw]

@urbangardener any information on the Botanical Gardens?

[disc4tw]

@OckooMicrofarm did you get on the same tour? Any impressions different from those posted?

[blueKYstream]

I’m not sure. The tag said D31 or D-31 x Unknown. I haven’t studied his numbering, but I’m wondering after looking at his list if it may not be DL-31 x Shin Na Da 2014. Not sure that it helps, but I believe there were two 100-46 trees across from it (what I’d consider the previous row).

I’m glad you tagged Timothy. I spoke some with him while we waited for the rain to stop. I’d love to hear his thoughts on everything. I don’t know how much he gets on here, but I imagine he likely has a video in the works even if he isn’t able to (and a couple other stops he plans).

[Anjeerfarmer]

I also was able to attend with my family. Thanks to @blueKYstream for starting this thread, otherwise I would not have known. Too bad we were not able to connect during the tour but next time you head south please stop by at our hobby farm near Lexington,KY.

Here is my debrief of the tour.

It was raining as we were driving and got there but did get a nice showing of Sun through the clouds for this event to happen. Cliff’s wife made persimmon cakes and they were delicious with french press coffee in cold and rain.

We get to taste a red fleshed pear. It was not the sweetest but had a very good balance of sweet and tart. Cliff called it " ----------- Pear". I have been looking but can not find any info on it. Plan to call him tomorrow to get the right name. I would definitely plant it.

Orchard tour started with Persimmons. My notes are a little different from @blueKYstream and maybe because I was biased to try what I have concluded from the forum but best tasting for me was undoubtedly 100-46 Lehman’s Delight.

Taste wise my list from today’s tasting would go in this order

100-46
H-118
H-120
Prok X HKD
Morris Burton HKD
D31

Most beautiful tree specimen undoubtedly was Kassandra

Most Productive trees with good taste was

Prok HKD: (There were 2 trees and both were loaded with Persimmons)

Morris Burton HKD: This tree was also loaded.

C 100: This tree was also loaded but tasted very mild.

D 31 or D13 : Yes this persimmon had a spicy cinnamon pumpkin like flavor.

100-46: This tree was full of fruit too.

Notes on some others

Del Golith: Perfumy with a good taste.

Brittain’s Blue Decent taste. I probably will plant just for the novelty of it.

Saijo x Rosseyanka: Tasted much like an Asian Persimmon, Big fruit

Super Rosseyanka: Big Fruit.

Roman Kosh: Medium to big fruit.

I am very partial towards American Persimmons. Only Hybrid I have tasted was David’s Kandy and am very hopeful about Kassandra.

Jujube:

Hands down again and again Honey Jar is the best tasting. Pics below are not HJ but decent thing anyhow.

A bundle of thanks to Mr. Clifford England @KYnuttrees for hosting this event.

[blueKYstream]

Jujubes - This was my first go with jujubes. To my taste, there were a few taste categories: sweet, tart, sweet & tart, and bland. I generally favored the ones that were balanced but favoring being tart. Jujubes may have been my preferred fruit from the trip. They seem like such an easy-to-eat and convenient food. My daughter liked them as well. The three stand outs to me were:

Honey Jar - Sweet, good taste
Autumn Beauty - Balanced sweet and tart, very good, large
Zi Ou Chui Wang - Balanced sweet and tart but slightly more tart. Very good.

I remember one that was excellent, very tart, but unfortunately extremely small (think callery pear small). For that reason, I didn’t stop to write the name.

[Anjeerfarmer]

Thanks again to @KYnuttrees I was able to come home with this score.

[blueKYstream]

I appreciate that @Anjeerfarmer! Same to you if you head up north near Covington/Cincinnati. I didn’t get a chance to try some of the ones you tried like H-118, H-120 or the Morris Burton cross. Some of the hybrids were tough to find ones that were ripe. I was generally late getting to those just trying to keep up with my daughter. Prok x HKD was very good! I agree with you on that. I remember being slightly disappointed with 100-46 since I couldn’t taste much difference from some of the others. It could have been the fruits I sampled though too. I completely agree that Kassandra was the most beautiful tree. Do you know which persimmons they sold in containers? It wasn’t labeled but maybe it was one of the cultivars I hadn’t tried.

I look forward to trying the red fleshed pears and a couple others I got. I haven’t tried any yet though. I got Che fruits as well. I thought they were OK, but not great. My daughter loved them though. I have some more to try, so we’ll see if that changes my mind any.

[OckooMicrofarm]

Hi everyone

We were able to attend yesterday, and yes, I’ve got a video in the works (one of several) re: Cliff and the tasting event. We got there a day early and filmed a bit the afternoon prior.

For persimmon, I’ll echo a few others – the clear winners were

H63a (D. virginiana)
Lehman 100-46 (D. virginiana)
Prok x Hokkaido (Cliff’s original hybrid)
Claypool H-120 (D. virginiana)
UKR 15-9 (Derevyanko unnamed hybrid)
Sosnovskaya (Derevyanko UKR Hybrid)
Celebrity U20a - the most “Unique” of the D. virginianas. Thick texture, mellow flavor.

Emphasis on UKR 15-9, it’s really something special. I believe only a couple other people tried this fruit, it was passed over by Cliff. It’s got the kaki skin/outer flesh, with a jelly middle, and just the best American persimmon flavor. BIG fruit, too. It’s excellent.

H63a, the “Paradise” persimmon, lived up to the hype. It’s just a wonderful balanced, slap in the face of everything that’s good about D. virginiana.

Kasandra is quite good too- it’s got a sweetness and a bit of the American persimmon complexity. It’s not just a sugar bomb like Nikita’s Gift is.

Bliznetsnaja and Kulinaja - Bliznets is more top-shaped, Kuli more oblate, both are good, not remarkable, but solid hybrid flavor and excellent size.

Rosseyanka, the classic hybrid is an exact mix of Kaki and Virginiana. Like, to the T.
Strong flavor from both participants, but also mellow enough to eat more than one.

I’ll have a video soon. Hopefully.

[disc4tw]

@OckooMicrofarm

UKR 15-9, it’s really something special

Haven’t heard anything about this one before. Looking forward to seeing the videos when you get there!

[Anjeerfarmer]

Spoke with Mr. England and this is actually a Briaca/Cocomerina pear. I would describe the flavor as balanced between sweet and tart. quite refreshing. Mr. England’s words " This tree is bullet proof " requiring no spray but might take 10 years to bear fruit… I do plan to get scions.

Here is some info on this pear

Cocomerina pear - Romagna Toscana Turismo

French Silvestris was a Crabapple, It was edible (not sweet or tart) and not good enough to consider planting it.

[windysnow]

Thanks for sharing. ,

Great to hear about the tasting. I’ve never tasted American persimmons. How are they different from Fuyu/Hachiya?

I plan to order some scions from England’s Orchard. Thinking of Taishu, saijo, Honan red.

Then after reading this post, interested in UKR 15-9, H63A, Kassandra, Barbra’s Blush.

I’d appreciate some suggestions to narrow down to 3/4 cultivar. I live in SOCAL, zone 10. Thanks.