Natto, Vitamin K2, Fungicide, Serenade, Peaches

So I go through periods where I will buy a lot of Natto and eat it for a month then forget about it. I have tried nearly a dozen brands and never once have I had one that smelled had and sort of foul aroma. Its not flavorless I would call it extremely neutral. Its slimy yes but sicky slimy not runny slimy like okra, and even then it just is its more looks then anything. Most retail natto come with a little packet of soy and vinagar and or mustard, to bring out the flavor.

Recently I discovered its full of Vitamin K2 and how K2 interacts with Vitamin D. Basically, calcium liberated by Vitamin D is utilized by the body using the matrix GLA protein and osteocalcin which are activated by Vitamin K2. If you followed all the buzz about Vitamin D several years ago. Vitamin K2 was the missing piece of the puzzle. Also if your do decided to take Vitamin D be sure to take a lot of Magnesium also. Otherwise the Vitamin D3 never converts to its active form.

That aside. Just discovered the Natto Organism Bacillus subtilis - Wikipedia Is anti fungal and basis for Serenade ASO Biological Fungicide | Crop Science US ( thanks @Livinginawe

And some more research on controlling peach brown rot. Biological control of peach brown rot (Monilinia spp.) by Bacillus subtilis CPA-8 is based on production of fengycin-like lipopeptides | European Journal of Plant Pathology (
and other Biocontrol and other beneficial activities of Bacillus subtilis isolated from cowdung microflora - ScienceDirect

So Here is the thing Serenade costs $135 for the smallest bottle. Natto is easy to make. you soak some beans doesnt matter the type. Pressure steam them till done and add a some natto from a $3 breakfast pack. Wait a day or 3 and boom unlimited Serenade.

And if you have access to any serenade you could likely use that as a starter.

BTW anyone have some Serenade. I only need 1TBS.


It depends whether the Natto strain can produce the lipopeptides and the key ones in sufficient quantities.

I have some send me a DM.

Great post, lordkiwi.
I have been eating natto for a few years. If there is something super healthy like amla, natto, ginger, garlic, or mushrooms, I feel compelled to find a way to make it so I can consume it and become healthier. I make a Japanese inspired wrap with natto. I put it on a piece of nori, and then I put amla powder on it, so the astringency of the amla will cancel the sliminess of the natto. Then I put walnuts and pumpkin seeds, and plain yogurt. Then olives. Season with mustard, my homemade worcestershire sauce and chile. I throw away the soy sauce and mustard packets because they have so many toxic preservatives in them. Like you said, there is a lot of data on K2 going with vitamin D, phosphorus and exercise instead of just calcium in a pill form. Many scientists believe that K2 is the mysterious fat soluble vitamin that Weston Price called vitamin “X”.

I think I am going to try to put some natto in my compost tea to see if I can have a Serenade like effect this year. Great idea!
John S

You gave me


Do any of you guys ferment your own. I’ve been thinking about it.

I have several Asian stores in my neighborhood that I can bike to and pick it up cheaply, so it wouldn’t be worth fermenting it myself.
John S

I’ve been fermenting my own natto for many years. To get really good natto you need to keep the fermenting temperature between 100F and 105F for 20 to 24 hours. If you ferment too hot or too long you will get an undesirable ammonia smell. Also, small soybeans are better than the normal ones available. And unless you want to cook them for nine hours, a 45-minute cook in a pressure cooker is advised.

Have you tried using beans , like navy bean, pinto bean, etc other than soybean to make natto?
I bought natto starter culture, and am thinking not using soybean

I had tried several different beans but changing the bean didn’t make it taste any better. It takes a long time to aquire a taste for natto. All beans will ferment but soybeans ferment the best.

@Livinginawe – Thanks a lot. In other fermentations – such as cheese, yogurt, kimiz – I’ve started to use nested containers. The fermentation is in the inner container; water is in the outer container. My sous vide appliance maintains temperatures in the water, which maintains temperatures in the fermentation. So if I try nato, I’ll follow your guidance.

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black beans are the second most common beans used for Natto in Japan. I have seen people on youtube use garbonzo(chick peas) several times. At this point I assume the legume does not matter.


Sous vide I love mine. but I would be afaid depriving natto of all O2 might not be good for the culture.
the Yogurt button on an electric pressure cooker like an Instapot would be a better choice.

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You misunderstood me. I don’t enclose the ferment in a plastic bag. I just use the heating device to warm the surrounding water.

Here’s the set-up. This is a 1st attempt at koumiss, 24 hours in. At this point the bacteria have acidified the milk enough to curdle it but the yeast have not yet transformed any material amount of the sugars to alcohol. The drink is a mix of curds and whey, so i’ve stirred it. Steppe nomads would shake or beat the goatskin container.

What starters are you using? I think the purpose of the churning is to render the butter out. Do you have a plan for that? Have you ever tried this drink before. I understand calpis is modeled after this drink.

I got my hands on a starter from Turkey, where it is called kimiz. It has a very nice blend of bacteria and yeast that compares well with published scientific literature on organisms that produce good koumiss.

None of the many sets of instructions I’ve read, including the instructions on the starter, mention butter. I’m not worrying about, just as I ignore it when making yogurt, kefir, farmer’s cheese, etc. My inference is that because the whey is not drained, the batch needs to be shaken, stirred, pounded etc. to offset the natural separation of curds and whey. For example, one set of instructions says, “Stir, then drink after the mix achieves the right consistency.” Whatever that means. :slight_smile:

No, I have never tasted it before. This is totally an experiment. I was reading books about steppe nomads and got interested. FYI, for the milk I added lactose to whole pasteurized cow’s milk to create a faux mare’s milk that is 7% lactose by weight.

What interested me most was the inclusion of yeast, which causes the mix to become mildly (e.g., 2-3%) alcoholic and fizzy.

Modernized versions of this are Calpis - Wikipedia and Yakult - .Wikipedia Both of which I find delicious.

I hope it works out and you can keep that starter going. Does not seem might want to bum some off you in the future

Thanks. Checking quickly it seems that these two products are similar to koumiss. Calpis claims roots in the Mongolian version of koumiss. But there are differences. Specfically, these products apparently (1) include no yeast, so there is zero alcohol; (2) add sweetening such as glucose, fructose, sucrose; (3) add extra acid, specifically citric acid and lactic acid, and (4) add fruit flavoring. So these are another version of drinkable yogurt, more or less. Maybe akin to ayran, which is simpler.

None of that is bad. I love commercial ayran, specifically the version sold with mint. I can see adding fruit flavoring. I’m less excited about sweetening but might try just a little.

One question: Whether I should stir more vigorously (or blend mechanically) to break the curds into tiny pieces that will remain longer in suspension.

Im just assuming the drunk makers aimed for a simular flavor. There goals where sto use up there surplus of milk products originally.

No idea how to homogenize the end product. A blender just make it smaller.

Yeah, I’m not looking to homogenize it, just make it drinkable without bothersome curds.

Well, FYI – The presence of lumpy curds in my 1st batch of kimiz was most likely a result of human error – fermenting too long. I kept the batch fermenting for 48 hours because it was not obvious to me that the yeast had become active (e.g., no CO2 bubbles). I may have been right about the yeast, but 48 hours gave the lactic acid bacteria too much time.

I come to this conclusion based on two bits of evidence. First, in instructions for making kefir I read that (a) lumpy curds and (b) whey separation are symptoms of fermenting too long. Next, I made a second batch of kimiz using some of the 1st batch as starter. This 2nd batch seemed well fermented – including CO2 bubbles around the edges – after only 16-18 hours, so I stopped. I funneled the batch into a plastic gallon jug. It was not lumpy. Instead it seems to be a frothy liquid throughout – and very tasty.

I leave the jug in the fridge. I can pour 1-2 cups a day as a high protein, low carb drink. Supposedly the fermentation will continue in the fridge at a slow pace, so I need to make sure that the top is not too tight, An explosion of kimiz in the fridge would not be good. Meanwhile I’m going to experiment with additives such as mint, fruit juice.

p.s. Coffee-flavored syrup is a RI thing. I just threw some into my kimiz. The resulting drink is excellent. It’s like a tangy coffee milkshake.

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Granted i was experimenting with alternate ingredients in this post. When i stick to the basics this rdrink comes out great.

Korean rice punch or chinese … insert correct name later